JimF-LowBari Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 (edited) The substitute effect in this case refers to what else they didn't do. Those marching band kids (in general) didn't seek out the corps that remained, some of which could been quite close. Dozens, hundreds, of soon-to-be-extinct corps didn't attract the similar numbers of young marchers even in regions where drums corps recently had drawn large numbers to participate. Did demand for the experience just evaporate? I'd say yes in some respects and no in others. And the no owes in part to the fact that some kids were finding sufficient satisfaction in one particular substitute - competitive high school band programs. But the question remains (caveat - not meant to cover all corps): 1) Were the corps healthy but died off because of lack of interest from new members? 2) Did the corps die off from other reasons and the potential members not have chance to join? See MikeDs example of Newark.... mainly since I remember reading about what Newark was like when BSGK disbanded in the early 70s. As for people getting their 'fix' from HS MB I'm still waiting for a large group of people to say "I didn't do DC because MB was enough". What I am seeing from personal and DCP experience is cost to join a corps and time constraints factor in more than "eh - MB was enough". Edited May 2, 2012 by JimF-LowBari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 But the question remains (caveat - not meant to cover all corps): 1) Were the corps healthy but died off because of lack of interest from new members? I would think there were some like that. With over 400 field corps in 1971, I would think it safe to assume a variety of reasons for a lot of their failures. Finances for some, lack of kids for others, and all sorts of combinations along the spectrum. As for people getting their 'fix' from HS MB I'm still waiting for a large group of people to say "I didn't do DC because MB was enough". What I am seeing from personal and DCP experience is cost to join a corps and time constraints factor in more than "eh - MB was enough". Well, I'm not sure they'll say "MB is enough". Just as most kids in the snmaller corps back then just did their thing and moved on with life, kids in MB just do that thing and move on with life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiodb Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 The first part, however, isn't addressing the core issue, which is better high school band experiences might have dissuaded some kids from seeking out local corps through the years. That's because you haven't shown a cause-and-effect connection there. You're correct about both options. A lot of kids didn't have the choice to march in a local corps because those corps were dying through the 70s and 80s. So some significant portion of the kids in marching band couldn't march in their parents' corps. I think we agree on that. It's more than that. Some of these bands are in areas that never had a corps....and conversely, some of yesteryear's corps were in areas that didn't have competing band programs at the time (some still don't). The substitute effect in this case refers to what else they didn't do. Those marching band kids (in general) didn't seek out the corps that remained, some of which could been quite close. Dozens, hundreds, of soon-to-be-extinct corps didn't attract the similar numbers of young marchers even in regions where drums corps recently had drawn large numbers to participate. Did demand for the experience just evaporate? I'd say yes in some respects and no in others. And the no owes in part to the fact that some kids were finding sufficient satisfaction in one particular substitute - competitive high school band programs. Not buying it. I don't see all these hordes of kids saying "well, I was going to march 27th Lancers, but now my HS has a band so I'm doing that instead". You aren't even giving an anecdotal example of such. From what I know, it's quite the opposite, in that bands are often the mechanism that introduces kids to drum corps. Happened that way for me circa 1980....if not for my marching band, I would never have discovered drum corps. In fact, given that today's corps recruits are exclusively MB trained, it is silly in a way to contend that marching band is taking kids away from drum corps when, in fact, MB is the near-exclusive supply source of drum corps kids. Again though, the adults are a different story. I can see how a whole wave of creative staff/potential drum corps admins chose instead to become marching band staff/band directors, where there was a financial base in place to support what they were doing. And from there, the recruiting and development efforts of that whole wave of people went toward marching band programs instead of local-level drum corps. No meteor hit this ground. The failure of a generation of young people to find the drum corps practice fields reflects several things: disruption in the communities that once nutured drum corps and their participants; substitute experiences, including high school marching band that drained the talent pool of potential; money; television; blah, blah, blah ...It all adds up to one truth. And that is we can't go back. In what sense? If you are referring to some dinosaur thinking that if we just unplugged the synths, hacked the valves off the horns with a blowtorch, and marched squad drill, that hundreds of corps would spring up like corn in Iowa and the stands would magically fill with legions of people....you're right, that won't work. But let's not discard every single principle that can be associated with "the past" just yet. For instance, cost-consciousness is a principle from "the past" that I think belongs in the discussion somewhere.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 (edited) I would think there were some like that. With over 400 field corps in 1971, I would think it safe to assume a variety of reasons for a lot of their failures. Finances for some, lack of kids for others, and all sorts of combinations along the spectrum. LOL, that's the problem in being around for a while and keeping your eyes and ears open. You find out that there isn't a stock answer that covers it all. Considering your GSC experience and my years with a non-top All Ager we've been exposed to things others here might not have dreamed of. Well, I'm not sure they'll say "MB is enough". Just as most kids in the snmaller corps back then just did their thing and moved on with life, kids in MB just do that thing and move on with life. What I'm reading in some posts made by others is "A big reason why Drum Corps died off is kids have had enough competative marching in HS". (Which is different from the posts you've made about MB taking the role of local corps BITD.) I've just haven't seen posts or other info to back that up. Edit: Owe a $1 to audiodb (wouldn't be the first $$$ I've sent his way ) as I'm not buying it either. Edited May 2, 2012 by JimF-LowBari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 (edited) IMO the drum corps environment pre-DCI was doomed. You could see it starting in the 60's, really, even before the economic issues of the 70's. This is especially true in the urban areas. Society was changing. True.. society changed, sponsors like the Church and the Veteran Organizations pulled back suppport. These were pivotal suppport mechanisms. When they pulled back, most Corps were at a loss to find suitable replacement sponsors. I also might add that the National Touring Model implemented by DCI right from the getgo exasperated and accelerated the loss of Corps and fans too, imo. DCI might have been better served in hindsight utilizing the successful NCAA College sports Tournament model where Corps only traveled and competed regionally... say in 4 regionals spread out in 4 sections of the country. The top 8 Corps ( 2 from each regional ) would then advance to the Championships of 3 days of Quarters, Semi's, Finals at a national site. It would have led to more regional loyalties, kept costs down for the majority of Corps, and maybe kept a lot of Corps alive. The reason Corps folded AFTER DCI was formed, was primarily economic and financial in nature. The traveling costs were simply too much for dozens of them to sustain and absorb. Once Corps size also increased exponentially, and we added large and huge props to shows ( expensive to transport ) the costs likewise soared, and as a result more Corps went to an early grave from these changes as well. We sometimes forget that dozens of Corps were started AFTER DCI was formed .Most of them gone as well. The activity has lost more Corps since DCI was formed, than it has in existence in numbers in DCI World Class Division competition today. We can't ignore that fact in our discussions either it seems to me. Edited May 2, 2012 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glory Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 ...Well, I'm not sure they'll say "MB is enough". Just as most kids in the snmaller corps back then just did their thing and moved on with life, kids in MB just do that thing and move on with life. True that. Beside, they're not coming to DCP to discuss corps. Friends, we're not like others in this world. After you get past the perennials like us, the people in the stands at drum corps shows include lots who liked the show but won't return anyway. I know a lot of people at work who marched corps or band in the past, who appreciate drum corps but who haven't been to a show in ages. It's not because they decided they didn't like it. They just don't feel the urge to return. Doesn't make sense to me. Doesn't mean it's not true. HH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmjfelts1988 Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 I believe that we are asking to much of DCI. When most of us started we were just small corps doing local circuits and state championships. I believe we need to get back to this. We are asking new corps to jump in and compete at the DCI level. DCI should not control the activity. They should handle the judging and the regional championships and when a corps evolves to a point when they are good enough then they can go to the major championships. The first 4 or 5 years I was in a corps we never went to these big shows because we weren't good enough and didn't have the money. Any ideas ? Yeah, I'm thinking Multigrain Waffles with Smuckers Blueberry Syrup and LOADS of butter is a good choice for today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 (edited) True that. Beside, they're not coming to DCP to discuss corps. Understood and agree... Should have mentioned that the DCI eligible people I've talked to in the past few years mainly came from contacts or were members of my Alumni-type corps (age rank college to 70s). Some had DCI as a later option and did both DCA and DCI. Some said the (mostly) time and money was the killer in trying out for DCI. Friends, we're not like others in this world. After you get past the perennials like us, the people in the stands at drum corps shows include lots who liked the show but won't return anyway. I know a lot of people at work who marched corps or band in the past, who appreciate drum corps but who haven't been to a show in ages. It's not because they decided they didn't like it. They just don't feel the urge to return. Doesn't make sense to me. Doesn't mean it's not true. Sounds like almost all of the people I have marched with. Some have had priorities change in their life and DC is really low on the list. Some don't care enough for todays shows to spend the time and money to attend and others find the distance to shows is now too far. Personally I walked away from attending for 10 years due to life changes and realized I had more important things to do with my life than sit in stands watching something that wasn't as important to me as in the past. Came back due to a couple of co-incidences but hardly attend now due to non-DC reasons. Edited May 2, 2012 by JimF-LowBari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielray Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 I can't speak for anyone else, but I do not discuss the past merely to lament. As the cliche says, we learn from our past mistakes. Successes, too. Name one lesson from the past that has not been appropriately addressed. Seriously, any lessons currently relevant have been well learned (Miss Jackson, if you're nasty). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFZFAN Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 (edited) DanielRay will save drum corps single handedly - "One nauseatingly lengthy diatribe at a time" Edited May 2, 2012 by SFZFAN 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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