How many think Cadets 2 will be the death of other corps

[MikeD]

To take this scenario a bit further, GH wants the woodwinds in DCI and eventually they will be in DCI. We all know that...

A few years after DCA will have a "crisis" where it will be argued that DCA will fail if woodwinds are not added. Then if you want to hear (brass & percussion) woodwind and synth free music, it will have been eliminated by "progress." All in order to achieve a certain generic marching band sameness.

Given the limits of drum corps, instrumentation-wise, it is drum corps that achieves a 'generic sameness', not marching band. There is much more variety in the makeup of bands on the field than corps.

[MikeD]

DCI Staff is now rooted in the band and WGI experiences and performance styles.

As are the staff members of DCA corps.

[MikeD]

2004 Boston color of crap show.

That was a great show.

[Jeff Ream]

As are the staff members of DCA corps.

exactly. it's hard to escape the bleedover from any of the genres, from performers to instructors to judges

[dcpincollector]

how about the show where they had the outhouse on the field,..........I remember the girl coming out dancing with a bunch of flowers,...........reminded me of an old summers eve commercial,.................

This is the first time I have ever gotten on the DCA forum.

It is my last.

This comment shows a depth of stupidity far beyond what is often seen on the DCI side. It also shows that drum corps will be better off when the "old guard" is gone.

I can't even believe that anyone would say that. You belong in the Hall of Shame!!!

Good bye!!!

[Dennis Saccente]

-I see it a couple ways.

1. 16-22's coming to participate/ audition in Cadets1 "Experience Camps", and early season December and January might be given the option to participate in Cadets 2. Also If it's deemed in auditions they cannot make Cadets 1, they may have an immediate hole to fill in Cadets2. If I read numbers correctly, Cadets get around 300 kids to come out to these early season camps? So imagine....300 kids to recruit to Cadets2...Wow. How many of us would love to have an Open House that 300 showed up to?

2. I think Boccok does the hornbook for Reading? Also, Cipriani, and Saktig assist on staff or work with Reading? Will they continue to work with Reading if they decide to caption or staff Cadets2?

3. how many 16-22's do Reading, Hawthorne, Windsor, Fusion, Cabs, Bush, and Hurcs have right now...that are there to gain experience with these corps, to march World Class corps when they turn 17 or 18? If the opportunity to fill a hole became apparent in Cadets 2, would they view it as their opportunity to gain that experience for that dream corps?

3A. I see Jersey Surf looking at this issue more than anyone else.

3B. Making a comparison to 3: In Atlanta, Will Alliance and Corpsvets experience membership drops with Spirit back in town?

4. II think with the age group, Cadets2 may find it productive to be practicing more than just Saturdays and Sundays during the summer. To a kid who may want a corps experience, and be everyday with his friends, but without the tour and gyms, this is attractive.

I Agree completely. These are all very viable points. To take this one step further lets talk about the competition end of the proposal. The Cadets are not the only DCI corps enjoying this type of annual response. Others will follow upon the success of this attempt at using DCA as the training bed for DCI World Class. Is this the direction DCA wants to go in? How long before DCA is being dictated to by DCI? Granted, there are benefits to opening up our activity to additional candidates who would otherwise be sitting at home, not being able to make an world class line. THIS is a regional issue. The West Coast corps have 'A', 'B', 'C'...etc... within their own Organizations. Why won't the Cadets consider this option? Also, I guess Dick Pronti, and the DCA haven't learned anything after allowing Star United to completely Dominate the Mini Corps Scene. My point is the difference between the average member of a DCA Corps ( weekend warriors' if you will ) vs. the seasoned professional musician. A very different approach from a traditional DCA Corps. To go forward, I submit the only fair way to keep everyone happy would be to create a separate Division for DCI Class entries, regardless of Age, skill level, or experience. Think it over. Any thoughts?

[corpsband]

I Agree completely. These are all very viable points. To take this one step further lets talk about the competition end of the proposal. The Cadets are not the only DCI corps enjoying this type of annual response. Others will follow upon the success of this attempt at using DCA as the training bed for DCI World Class. Is this the direction DCA wants to go in? How long before DCA is being dictated to by DCI? Granted, there are benefits to opening up our activity to additional candidates who would otherwise be sitting at home, not being able to make an world class line. THIS is a regional issue. The West Coast corps have 'A', 'B', 'C'...etc... within their own Organizations. Why won't the Cadets consider this option?

What makes you think they haven't considered it and discarded it as not meeting their needs or the needs of the potential members?

DCA offers a *significantly* lower cost of participation.

DCA shows/schedule/geography give plenty of performance opportunities.

DCA corps are already being used (and marketed as) training grounds for students who want to march DCI.

YEA can leverage their access to students to recruit for C². They run a local circuit with thousands of kids who live close enough to participate in weekend-only corps. It's yet to be proven those kids will actually *do* C² but I expect they will be able to fill the corps.

As for fairness -- I don't see the issue. It's ALL-AGE drum corps. Other corps have gotten significantly younger, upped their rehearsal time and the results show on the field. If C² takes that trend to it's logical conclusion, I see nothing wrong with that.

Edited September 3, 2011 by corpsband

[Dennis Saccente]

What makes you think they haven't considered it and discarded it as not meeting their needs or the needs of the potential members?

DCA offers a *significantly* lower cost of participation.

DCA shows/schedule/geography give plenty of performance opportunities.

DCA corps are already being used (and marketed as) training grounds for students who want to march DCI.

YEA can leverage their access to students to recruit for C². They run a local circuit with thousands of kids who live close enough to participate in weekend-only corps. It's yet to be proven those kids will actually *do* C² but I expect they will be able to fill the corps.

As for fairness -- I don't see the issue. It's ALL-AGE drum corps. Other corps have gotten significantly younger, upped their rehearsal time and the results show on the field. If C² takes that trend to it's logical conclusion, I see nothing wrong with that.

Your comments are respectfully noted with major exceptions;

1.) look at virtually all of the front running DCI Corps. As I stated, just about all have very successful 'feeder' Corps. Why don't the Cadets?

2.) You are correct, DCA does offer lower 'Up Front' cost of Participation, Schedule related to Geography, and Opportunities but, THAT is directly related to the lack of Tour Costs. Traditionally, DCA members have also absorbed those costs personally. As I stated, 'Weekend Warriors', not Kids.

3.) Let DCA Management correct me if I am wrong but, just changing the name from 'Senior' Corps to 'All Age' does not imply 'Marketed Training Grounds' for students wanting to march DCI. WE are still DRUM CORPS, NOT 'Marching Music Ensembles'. There is a distinct difference between adopted Instrumentation by DCI, and DCA. Mr. Hopkins is attempting to force the issue now that he has been removed from the DCI BOD.

4.) Let's call it like it is.... YEA is a 'BAND' organization, also under the control of George Hopkins. DCA is not A BAND Organization, and NEVER has been.

5.) Lastly, as for your statement about fairness, Since 1969 as part of the DCA, my own corps have not changed the number of hours spent at rehearsal. Yes, day's and hours have changed due to travel constraints and expenses but, they still do not rehearse any more total hours then we did years ago. Mid Week rehearsal has given way to the Weekend camps which I agree in total are just as productive as my traveling from Long Island to Hawthorne NJ ( 2 Nights a week and 1 Sunday a Month during the winter in an Armory somewhere).

Summation; My opinion ( and I am entitled to it ) Keep George Hopkins, and his Clout out of the DCA unless the DCA remains in control. Give them ( DCI entries ) there own Division if they wish. That can be considered the 'Marching Music Ensemble Sand Box for experimentation of difference Voicing, and design for the DCA without effecting what made the DCA what it is today. In Time, let it's merits speak for themselves else, move on and create a YEA Circuit in George's image.

DRS

[GUARDLING]

Your comments are respectfully noted with major exceptions;

1.) look at virtually all of the front running DCI Corps. As I stated, just about all have very successful 'feeder' Corps. Why don't the Cadets?

2.) You are correct, DCA does offer lower 'Up Front' cost of Participation, Schedule related to Geography, and Opportunities but, THAT is directly related to the lack of Tour Costs. Traditionally, DCA members have also absorbed those costs personally. As I stated, 'Weekend Warriors', not Kids.

3.) Let DCA Management correct me if I am wrong but, just changing the name from 'Senior' Corps to 'All Age' does not imply 'Marketed Training Grounds' for students wanting to march DCI. WE are still DRUM CORPS, NOT 'Marching Music Ensembles'. There is a distinct difference between adopted Instrumentation by DCI, and DCA. Mr. Hopkins is attempting to force the issue now that he has been removed from the DCI BOD.

4.) Let's call it like it is.... YEA is a 'BAND' organization, also under the control of George Hopkins. DCA is not A BAND Organization, and NEVER has been.

5.) Lastly, as for your statement about fairness, Since 1969 as part of the DCA, my own corps have not changed the number of hours spent at rehearsal. Yes, day's and hours have changed due to travel constraints and expenses but, they still do not rehearse any more total hours then we did years ago. Mid Week rehearsal has given way to the Weekend camps which I agree in total are just as productive as my traveling from Long Island to Hawthorne NJ ( 2 Nights a week and 1 Sunday a Month during the winter in an Armory somewhere).

Summation; My opinion ( and I am entitled to it ) Keep George Hopkins, and his Clout out of the DCA unless the DCA remains in control. Give them ( DCI entries ) there own Division if they wish. That can be considered the 'Marching Music Ensemble Sand Box for experimentation of difference Voicing, and design for the DCA without effecting what made the DCA what it is today. In Time, let it's merits speak for themselves else, move on and create a YEA Circuit in George's image.

DRS

DCA is nothing what it was either back inthe 70s and will continue to evolve ( much slower pace ) but none the less evolve to accomonadate its members (which are alot younger ) Bottom line no matter how anyone feels..and people are entitled to an opinion, even if it doesnt change a thing... NO RULES ARE BEING BROKEN...If this corps changes the face of things..so be it..maybe its time....if not , so be it maybe the time isnt now. I truly believe nothing will drastically change unless the corps as a whole want it to BUT if it does no one person can be blamed and thats the same in DCI (although I know many will blame 1 person for sure.

If this corps steps up the game and others have to do more to be competitve ....well so be it.....oh thats right some would rather complain instead of doing what they need to......or throw out the current multi time winner.. I also remember a time when corps were running scared when Bush was formed. Did some need to bring their game to the table as that corps improved..HELL YES THEY DID. But that used to called good drum corps.

Well either way its cool to see things being shook up even before a corps hits the field...lol....if one corps has that much power now can you imagine how its possible to shake up every corps into being better.....lol........after all this it would be hysterical if they didnt come out or were a basic A class level...lmao

[Dmlkmen]

I Agree completely. These are all very viable points. To take this one step further lets talk about the competition end of the proposal. The Cadets are not the only DCI corps enjoying this type of annual response. Others will follow upon the success of this attempt at using DCA as the training bed for DCI World Class. Is this the direction DCA wants to go in? How long before DCA is being dictated to by DCI? Granted, there are benefits to opening up our activity to additional candidates who would otherwise be sitting at home, not being able to make an world class line. THIS is a regional issue. The West Coast corps have 'A', 'B', 'C'...etc... within their own Organizations. Why won't the Cadets consider this option? Also, I guess Dick Pronti, and the DCA haven't learned anything after allowing Star United to completely Dominate the Mini Corps Scene. My point is the difference between the average member of a DCA Corps ( weekend warriors' if you will ) vs. the seasoned professional musician. A very different approach from a traditional DCA Corps. To go forward, I submit the only fair way to keep everyone happy would be to create a separate Division for DCI Class entries, regardless of Age, skill level, or experience. Think it over. Any thoughts?

I have had an epiphany, so to speak, since that last post you quoted. I don't view Cadets2 as unethical as I once did. The negative impact to DCI Open Class and unfair advantage in DCA I thought, has changed. I had a good talk with a friend and also have been reading this thread, and have since changed views. What began to make sense to me was simply the obvious. DCI Open Class in the region that Cadets2 exist, is much more dominated by DCA. The Garden State Circuit was wonderful for its time. I loved going to those shows circa 1990's. I had hoped to one day have it back. But times being what they are, I appreciate the fact that DCA is there in the region to fill the void.

And this is not to say Surf, Raiders, Spartans etc...those corps who used to do GSC will suffer because Cadets2 are going DCA. True, the corps could have helped anchor some great DCI Open Class shows. But those shows seem to be doing OK as they are. Plus, with the DCI/DCA marketing agreement, maybe we will get a show like Hershey was. I would fly back east from Denver, to see that show.

The West Coast has a great, great thing in the number of DCI Open Class corps. I say it often, having Finals at the Rose Bowl did so much for the creation of corps in California, particularly for adding more alumni groups- as well as raising interest in Renegades and

Dream. Many of my friends in Kingsmen Alumni got their competitive fire lit again, and went onto march Dream, Renegades, Kingsmen

Sr., Freelancers, etc. In comparison, what the Rose Bowl was for us, is what Rochester and now Annapolis has been and will be for new corps and participants. It's not DCI. But anything that influences corps activity, regardless of circuit, you can't discount how positive

it is.

As for age, drill , practice time.... I can see where Ed Mason is coming from, most of the time. (Age/ physical demand/ drill changing in DCA). I know It has become a reason some will or won't march. Or they may march and expect one thing in what their corps will do

visually, but find it difficult to adapt to a new visual philosophy. I don't doubt the Cadets2 will push the envelope in drill, just as their elder brothers did in the 80's and continue to do. But the argument it will push out the "older guys"- I am not totally buying into it.

The Reason :

Sure, in the 80s, Cadets were ushering in a visual evolution. But other corps did find ways to be competitive and win. Whether it was a

different perspective to visual (staging vs. a run and gun drill) or strengthening their percussion and brass- corps still came out and gave them a challenge. I see it the same way with DCA. There are other ways to win and still be competitive other than just a phenomenal drill. Perhaps with the entertainment aspect being important in score, high demand in drill won't be the benchmark, but rather part of the equatialso There is also the strengths of corps that vary year by year....all the necessary factors have to come together to make it.

My change of opinion 0.2 cents. I look forward to seeing Cadets2 next year.

Edited September 3, 2011 by Dmlkmen