danielray Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 promoters will not want "subpar" lineups. Look at the OC tour...in the middle of nowhere. if people say "i want the big guns or no show"...where do those corps perform? Oh right they dont. and what happens to corps with nowhere to go? Then they should get better. Seriously, I don't get why there should be a unique accommodation for lower performing corps. It is an unsustainable approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielray Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 and you have facts to back that up? Seems DCI said otherwise. It would be the data from the corps themselves.. that the kids themselves fill out when they audition and join. Not my data, so can't share it. DCI's project from years back was a sort of general survey and doesn't have this data separated by individual corps. I can tell you, as fact, with the exception of their own feeder corps, most top WC corps draw talent from either direct auditionees from HS/Winter programs or kids from other WC corps. Not that many come from OC. There are many that go from OC to lower placing WC corps, but few of these ever go on to the top corps. There are, of course, exceptions... but not a lot of this happening. Part of this is a sort of mentality on the part of kids who audition for their ideal corps... but don't make the cut.. and prefer not to march at all unless they can make their ideal corps. A lot of these kids might barely get cut from a spot in a top 4-5 corps, but could be a solid player in 5-8 place corps. If these kids would participate instead of sitting out the season... parity could improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiodb Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 Seriously, I don't get why there should be a unique accommodation for lower performing corps. It is an unsustainable approach. I don't see why there should be a unique accomodation for any corps based on competitive placement (lower or higher). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielray Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 I don't see why there should be a unique accomodation for any corps based on competitive placement (lower or higher). You accomodate the ones that bring in the cash. That is how the real world works and how you create sustainable business, by highlighting and supporting your star performers.... not by treating all equally. Seriously, I do not get the whole idea of trying to pretend that all corps are equal. They are not, and should not be treated as such. The only thing preventing a 19th place corps from being a 1st place corps is the management and board. It is a choice, and should not be rewarded equally. Each individual corps should have a unique and CONFIDENTIAL negotiation for their individual compensation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 (edited) You accomodate the ones that bring in the cash. That is how the real world works and how you create sustainable business, by highlighting and supporting your star performers.... not by treating all equally. Seriously, I do not get the whole idea of trying to pretend that all corps are equal. They are not, and should not be treated as such. The only thing preventing a 19th place corps from being a 1st place corps is the management and board. It is a choice, and should not be rewarded equally. Each individual corps should have a unique and CONFIDENTIAL negotiation for their individual compensation. In the "For Profit" world I completely agree with you in this matter; but not in the world of a "501c3 Youth Program" which is supposed to focus on the benefit of "all" youth within the activity. While the Cadets do not owe any financial obligations to the Raiders, George Hopkins certainly has the obligation to both guide and morally support the Raiders involvement within DCI. I mean you do not see other National 501c3 youth organizations just accommodating the specific units which bring in the most cash and spit on the smaller units! Edited December 5, 2011 by Stu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielray Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 (edited) In the "For Profit" world I completely agree with you in this matter; but not in the world of a "501c3 Youth Program" which is supposed to focus on the benefit of "all" youth within the activity. While the Cadets do not owe any financial obligations to the Raiders, George Hopkins certainly has the obligation to both guide and morally support the Raiders involvement within DCI. I mean you do not see other National 501c3 youth organizations just accommodating the specific units which bring in the most cash and spit on the smaller units! I don't see drum corps as a good social program and don't think people should pretend it is. How can it be considered to be a social program for youth development when only kids that already have an unusually high level of talent and that can drop thousands of dollars a year can participate. At the same time, there are much more effective social and developmental programs for youth out there than drum corps. I think it is just time to stop pretending that it is something it isn't and maximize what it actually is. A major goal for increasing revenues and returning more money to corps would be to lower the cost of participation (free is a good goal). If I ran the zoo, increases in revenues paid to corps would come on the condition that they lower participation fees. Again, I dig drum corps and think many more kids should have a chance to participate... but we need to stop kidding ourselves that it is anything close to a charity or social program. And "obligation to both guide and morally support the Raiders involvement within DCI"???? I don't see it. Edited December 5, 2011 by danielray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiodb Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 You accomodate the ones that bring in the cash. Here we go again....conflating competitive placement with some mythical "draw" unique to an individual corps. The promulgators of this fiction have been asked dozens of times to quantify it. Responses sound like Potter Stewart on pornography, unable to define it but "I know it when I see it". There is no answer, because the cash DCI brings in is not attributable to individual corps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielray Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 Here we go again....conflating competitive placement with some mythical "draw" unique to an individual corps. The promulgators of this fiction have been asked dozens of times to quantify it. Responses sound like Potter Stewart on pornography, unable to define it but "I know it when I see it". It isn't mythical... it is fact. It is very easily quantified... just look at attendance figures and merchandising sales for show with more top corps vs. shows with less. I don't know why you seem to insist that shows have the same draw regardless of lineup. They simply do not. There is no answer, because the cash DCI brings in is not attributable to individual corps. Again, if you look at the figures it is pretty clear. Want to know what started the whole G7/8 thing in the first place? An analysis of the figures. It is plain as day if you see them... DCI's own numbers (I know this, because I was the one that actually put them together). I'm not really going to argue this point any more, as it is quite silly to keep this going and your defense of this is illogical. The merchandising gap between 1st place and even 6th place is considerable... between 10th place on down, were talking multiples. That is a pretty #### good indicator of individual draw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rifuarian Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 (edited) Here we go again....conflating competitive placement with some mythical "draw" unique to an individual corps. The promulgators of this fiction have been asked dozens of times to quantify it. Responses sound like Potter Stewart on pornography, unable to define it but "I know it when I see it". There is no answer, because the cash DCI brings in is not attributable to individual corps. Is there a non-G7 corps, other than the Scouts, that is a bigger draw than a G7 corps? I can't think of any. That's not a say a non-G7 corps couldn't become a top draw (as compared to the middling G7 corps, not the top corps), if some of these corps prioritized entertainment rather than fielding dull, insipid shows and doing everything possible to squelch their identities (if they ever had one) and making themselves as forgettable as possible. There's not any statistically significant way to quantify which corps draws how many people, but you only have to compare lines at souvie stands to see that some are more popular than others. Edited December 5, 2011 by Rifuarian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bad Bari Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 It isn't mythical... it is fact. It is very easily quantified... just look at attendance figures and merchandising sales for show with more top corps vs. shows with less. I don't know why you seem to insist that shows have the same draw regardless of lineup. They simply do not. Again, if you look at the figures it is pretty clear. Want to know what started the whole G7/8 thing in the first place? An analysis of the figures. It is plain as day if you see them... DCI's own numbers (I know this, because I was the one that actually put them together). I'm not really going to argue this point any more, as it is quite silly to keep this going and your defense of this is illogical. The merchandising gap between 1st place and even 6th place is considerable... between 10th place on down, were talking multiples. That is a pretty #### good indicator of individual draw. Darn You Daniel, Don't you know that Drum Corps is a wonderful, mythical world of happiness and unicorns. What works outside of drum corps will not/can not work inside drum corps. It would kill all the unicorns. I love laughing at this forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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