Navillus WP Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) When kids get together they do stupid things. Even if it's the Young Mormon's Quilting Society they're going to do stupid things. Corps can't control their kids at all times. They can forbid whatever they want, but there's nothing much that can be done until someone gets caught. And if you're dumb enough or unlucky enough to get caught you deserve everything you have coming. "But everyone was doing it to!!!" is not a valid excuse After aging-out, I entered into education and eventually school administration. Even in my current semi-retirement, I've dealt with the choices kids make for well over 30 years. Five principles (pardon the pun) have shaped my approach with adolescents. Every adult and student with whom I've had dealings understand them, because they appear in a big sign over my desk: The trouble with most trouble is ..... it mostly started out as FUN. Love the sinner. Hate the sin. The measure of character is not the mistake, but what was done about it. People who are good at making excuses are often not good at much else. Get the facts, and get the facts straight. Other people's opinions are just their opinion. I read this whole thread and have filtered my reactions through these principles. I'm not going to second-guess either the corps or the people involved based upon hearsay. Kids make mistakes: some are doozies, some have far-reaching implications. We weren't there, we haven't heard from the principal parties. Edited January 10, 2012 by Navillus WP 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) One could also say he was "too loyal to his bass line" to have them suffer from his actions by not marching. You could: if you were a naive apologist I guess (yes, I marched drum corps in the drum line and understand how removing a bass drummer at any point, especially Finals week, would be detrimental) Anyone suggesting the late season removal of a member of the bass line doesn't negatively affect the line has never marched bass. Anyone defending the young man who broke the law and selfishly defied corps administration has never taught morals to young adults. One could argue that while unfortunate this incident taught the entire corps (especially the bass line/drum line) that one's selfish actions have a dire effect on the entire group. THAT is far more important than scores or placements, and while it would absolutely suck to have to deal with that on Finals day, sometimes life deals you a lemon and you have to quickly learn to make lemon aid. Plus, as I said in a previous thread, BD's percussion came in 6th place: after the bass line spent the entire day essentially relearning the show, don't you think that by having someone run out at the last second to compete would a) throw everything out of whack as far as emotions/taking away focus and b) screw things up based on what the bass line had been rehearsing all day. If you were talking about something happening, say, around dinner time, or during the last second of the day, or coming off of the buses and the bass line had zero time to prepare that would be one thing. But the bass line spent an entire day 'relearning' their show to accommodate. Oh, and the guy allegedly broke the freaking law, so really your entire argument is invalid IMO. If you're saying the good of the bass line supersedes corps policy and corps administration/leadership's decisions then no argument from any logical adult will be able to counter that type of selfish thinking. Edited January 10, 2012 by perc2100 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Why wouldn't this have been a better solution all around. You make the kid run a bunch of laps, put him under specific restrictions and supervision for the rest of tour, has to serve in the food line until everyone is fed and eat last, but if he does these things you let him finish marching, and at the end of tour you let him know your plans to have a serious conversation with his parents about what happened and allow them to deal with it. In no stretch of the imagination is that getting off the hook, and no one but him suffers for his actions. Really?! Marching laps and serving food = appropriate punishment for allegedly breaking the law?! Really? Maybe we should do this with the entire US penal system. What would you say is an appropriate punishment for murder: go to bed early, line the field every day, and wash the buses? Really?! And you assume that telling his parents means something: I'm sure you know the average age of Blue Devils was 19+, meaning in all likely hood the accused was a legal adult. So your "punishment" is for this young adult to have Gibbs give him a stern talking to, and let his parents ground him when he gets home: really? Maybe mommy and daddy can also slap him on the wrist when he gets home from tour, after he defiantly broke corps policy (and US state & federal law) but still got to do everything he wanted. REALLY?! this has been "REALL?!" with Seth Meyers 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheClutch Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Really?! Marching laps and serving food = appropriate punishment for allegedly breaking the law?! Really? Maybe we should do this with the entire US penal system. What would you say is an appropriate punishment for murder: go to bed early, line the field every day, and wash the buses? Really?! And you assume that telling his parents means something: I'm sure you know the average age of Blue Devils was 19+, meaning in all likely hood the accused was a legal adult. So your "punishment" is for this young adult to have Gibbs give him a stern talking to, and let his parents ground him when he gets home: really? Maybe mommy and daddy can also slap him on the wrist when he gets home from tour, after he defiantly broke corps policy (and US state & federal law) but still got to do everything he wanted. REALLY?! this has been "REALL?!" with Seth Meyers Just to play devils advocate.. Does the law not already have punishments? That kind of charge can be anything from a petty misdemeanor to a felony (depending on state). Depending on the charge, it could eliminate his ability to get a students loan, and even make him ineligible to get many jobs until going through a long expungement process. (nursing or teachers licenses) What the general agreement seems to be is that the corps should supplement the law? I do agree that the corps' image could be at risk.. but how far does this word spread? Have members ever been caught and not kicked out? Edited January 10, 2012 by TheClutch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Just to play devils advocate.. Does the law not already have punishments? That kind of charge can be anything from a petty misdemeanor to a felony (depending on state). Depending on the charge, it could eliminate his ability to get a students loan, and even make him ineligible to get many jobs until going through a long expungement process. (nursing or teachers licenses) What the general agreement seems to be is that the corps should supplement the law? I would say that the general agreement is that the corps likely has very explicit policies and has very explicit consequences for breaking those policies. For example, there are likely minor rules that might not have any type of punishment mentioned in a corps handbook, but the majority of corps that I have knowledge of (which does not include Blue Devils for the 2000 season specifically) do have pretty explicit policies stating that a violation of any substance abuse rules/laws is grounds for immediate removal from the corps. In this instance, I believe that the corps had policy in place, the member broke the rules (and law, regardless of how minor drug consumption might be on the penal code), and the corps took the steps as dictated in their written policy that best fit the situation. The member then took it upon himself to defy the corps administration and corps policy in return for doing what he selfishly wanted to do. I think the corps has every right to follow their own policy when it comes to members breaking rules, and as a private organization I believe they are within their rights to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarimbaManiac Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) You could: if you were a naive apologist I guess (yes, I marched drum corps in the drum line and understand how removing a bass drummer at any point, especially Finals week, would be detrimental) Anyone defending the young man who broke the law and selfishly defied corps administration has never taught morals to young adults. One could argue that while unfortunate this incident taught the entire corps (especially the bass line/drum line) that one's selfish actions have a dire effect on the entire group. THAT is far more important than scores or placements, and while it would absolutely suck to have to deal with that on Finals day, sometimes life deals you a lemon and you have to quickly learn to make lemon aid. Plus, as I said in a previous thread, BD's percussion came in 6th place: after the bass line spent the entire day essentially relearning the show, don't you think that by having someone run out at the last second to compete would a) throw everything out of whack as far as emotions/taking away focus and b) screw things up based on what the bass line had been rehearsing all day. If you were talking about something happening, say, around dinner time, or during the last second of the day, or coming off of the buses and the bass line had zero time to prepare that would be one thing. But the bass line spent an entire day 'relearning' their show to accommodate. Oh, and the guy allegedly broke the freaking law, so really your entire argument is invalid IMO. If you're saying the good of the bass line supersedes corps policy and corps administration/leadership's decisions then no argument from any logical adult will be able to counter that type of selfish thinking. Ok I think we're being a little dramatic here. Being caught with drugs is bad for the corps image, agreed. However what are we really talking about here? A member being caught with a little pot? I remember when I was in Junior corps (and I know for a fact it's the same way now) that a majority of the kids in the program were probably either holding, or smoking it at any given time. Was it against the rules? Sure I guess technically. However usually the staff would just look the other way (because frankly they were doing it as well). You have to remember that BD is from California, one of the most lenient states when it comes to pot, and likely the members just didn't see it as a big deal, as their staff, and the authorities back home had led them to believe it doesn't really matter (for reference, possession of small amounts of pot in CA even if you don't have a prescription holds the same weight as a traffic ticket...and that's if they even stop you, as some cities and counties have essentially decriminalized possession entirely by choosing to not enforce the laws). The problem came in when the local authorities and show organizers caught wind and forced the BD administration to take action. Should the kid have allowed himself to be caught? No definitely not. Should he have respected the directors wishes and stayed off the field? Yes. However to continually beat the drum that this was one person's selfish actions, and that he should be chastised for breaking the law is just not realistic to the actual circumstances of the situation. Edited January 10, 2012 by MarimbaManiac 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Ok I think we're being a little dramatic here. Being caught with drugs is bad for the corps image, agreed. However what are we really talking about here? What we are "really talking about here" is that a member broke a corps policy that likely dictates his immediate removal from the organization (at least, every corps I know of has this policy in place for illegal substance use). The corps then reacted in a fashion that likely conforms to their written policy (removal of the member who used an illegal substance). The member then decided that ON TOP OF VIOLATING CORPS POLICY (and law), he was going to go against the corps administration/leadership reprisal by wrongfully entering the corps' equipment truck to steal his uniform and instrument, run out on the field, and perform the Finals show: i.e. blatantly disregarding 'punishment' as well as the decisions of his corps director. You can try to simplify and negate the degree that the member broke rules/law. You can even argue that pot should be legal anyway (which I would agree with). But the fact is that not only did he break the law, but he broke what is typically regarded as a major corps policy AND THEN defied the corps leadership when they reacted by removing him. No matter how you try to belittle the member's infraction, what he did was wrong but how he reacted to getting caught and punished to deplorable and inexcusable IMO. There is NOTHING that you can do to try to explain it away or excuse it that will be make me change my feelings on this. I'm thinking about this not only as a former marching member of a drum corps who has gone through summers living by the corps rules and knowing that a major infraction would have dire consequences for all. I'm also approaching this from an educator who understands that sometimes part of teaching a kid/young adult means teaching them that there are consequences to bad decisions. And teaching the group that there are consequences not only for the person who commits the wrong act, but for the entire group who will have to pick up the pieces afterward. This young man screwed up multiple times, for nothing but selfish reasons, and what he did and how he reacted is inexcusable to me. Also, here is the Blue Devils' member agreement/contract that each member must sign: FWIW, for those criticizing negative reaction to this, here is Blue Devil's corps policy/membership contract relevant to this discussion: "Drugs and alcohol are not permitted at Blue Devils' rehearsals, camps, functions, and tour. I agree to fully abide by this policy""I am aware that failure to meet any of the obligations or commitments described above or in the Blue Devils Member Policies Agreement in the Blue Devils handbook, constitutes good cause for expulsion from the Blue Devils. I have read and fully understand the contents of this Agreement and/or have had the contents fully explained to my satisfaction." from their website at http://bluedevils.org/programs/a/2012/forms/pdf/MusiciansAgree12.pdf While the legal issues are for the court of law to deal with, I'm more concerned with how this young adult handled the situation in regards to his corps' policies. That blatant disregard is indefensible. Edited January 10, 2012 by perc2100 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowtown Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Sneaking onto the Blue Devils trucks, grabbing your uniform, suiting up, grabbing a drum…heading to the gate and joining the corps late….and no one noticed, no one tried to stop him and he did this all on his own? I don't buy it, some one had to help him it seems fishy I do wonder if he marched with consent and aid from some of the staff...if the booted out of the corps bit was just part of the show 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glory Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 "We" need to HEAR from? - No we really don't. I'm betting this incident is something they'd really rather not discuss - at least not on DCP. We don't need to hear from anyone. You read my mind. It never fails to amaze me what people think they are "entitled" to hear about something that's none of their business. ...In this thread, posts detailing speculations about what happened (or didn't happen) in 2000 should not be the basis of forming judgements. Moreover, the BD's (in any capacity) have no obligation to be drawn into someone else's thirst for juicy stories and melodrama. Do y'all cringe in church when they tell the part about Jacob's sons selling Joseph into slavery? We tell the story of our failures over and over because they matter. They matter because our story isn't just our successes, it's the shortcomings and the lessons we learn along the way. Joseph learned a lesson from his brothers - and not necessarily the one they intended. Maybe there is a lesson in this for all of us from BD. But if we're going to learn it, y'all just might have to agree to listen. Not condemning y'all to purgatory or anyplace nearby. Just saying it's natural and very much okay to wish to hear from someone who was there and has an opinion on what happened that night. HH 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grumpy Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Ok I think we're being a little dramatic here. Being caught with drugs is bad for the corps image, agreed. However what are we really talking about here? A member being caught with a little pot? I remember when I was in Junior corps (and I know for a fact it's the same way now) that a majority of the kids in the program were probably either holding, or smoking it at any given time. Was it against the rules? Sure I guess technically. However usually the staff would just look the other way (because frankly they were doing it as well). You have to remember that BD is from California, one of the most lenient states when it comes to pot, and likely the members just didn't see it as a big deal, as their staff, and the authorities back home had led them to believe it doesn't really matter (for reference, possession of small amounts of pot in CA even if you don't have a prescription holds the same weight as a traffic ticket...and that's if they even stop you, as some cities and counties have essentially decriminalized possession entirely by choosing to not enforce the laws). The problem came in when the local authorities and show organizers caught wind and forced the BD administration to take action. Should the kid have allowed himself to be caught? No definitely not. Should he have respected the directors wishes and stayed off the field? Yes. However to continually beat the drum that this was one person's selfish actions, and that he should be chastised for breaking the law is just not realistic to the actual circumstances of the situation. Just because BD is based in California, doesn't mean that's where this individual was from...I specifically recall reading a previous post in this thread that stated he was from somewhere in the Midwest, IIRC...secondly, the violation didn't occur in California-finals that year were held in College Park, MD-depending on where the corps was housed, and when the violation occurred, there are probably at least any of a half dozen or so states in close proximity and I am pretty sure their views on possession and use of illegal drugs are not as lenient as California. However, whether it's against the law isn't the point here-the person violated corps policy, and was caught-the penalty was expulsion from the corps, which he ignored. I am really curious in this whole scenario to find out what, if any, the final consequences ended up being for this individual-could/did BD take any further action; was this person arrested or otherwise investigated by law enforcement; or did he just go quietly home and move on with his life? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.