actucker Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 All I want is more objectivity, and more transparency. For instance, I wouldn't mind a slightly increased emphasis on tics, and every now and again I'd like to see judges held accountable in public and be given an opportunity to explain themselves. I think many people would be much happier if this came about. And that's where the big issue here is. Many people in the drum corps community think that the judges have any responsibility to the fans. They don't. Olympic judges don't have to answer to the ticket holders when assigning their scores. Major league baseball umpires don't answer to the public. Sure, the public will criticize, and complain, but at the end of the day, those people only answer to the higher ups in their sport/activity. The reason behind this is that the public is largely less educated regarding the inner workings of said sport or activity, and often unable to maintain any objectivity. Any discourse with the public regarding those scores would be unproductive at best. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tariq.shah Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 And that's where the big issue here is. Many people in the drum corps community think that the judges have any responsibility to the fans. They don't. Olympic judges don't have to answer to the ticket holders when assigning their scores. Major league baseball umpires don't answer to the public. Sure, the public will criticize, and complain, but at the end of the day, those people only answer to the higher ups in their sport/activity. The reason behind this is that the public is largely less educated regarding the inner workings of said sport or activity, and often unable to maintain any objectivity. Any discourse with the public regarding those scores would be unproductive at best. But they are accountable. They must be, and simply because there exists a lack of recourse in other sports doesn't mean the issue is dismissed. Just this week an Olympic boxing ref's decision was overturned. Baseball umpires hold press conferences. In the NFL & NBA we now have instant replay and challenges to calls on the field. I think these changes came about from a desire in the fan base for those activities for more accountability. Those organizations responded. It is not unreasonable for DCI to follow suit. And to explain further, I understand and agree with the notion that judges or referees deserve a bit of sequestration from the public-at-large. I think it is vital to the sport/activity. I'm not an advocate of collective judging, or turning over the judgement of the quality of a drum corps show solely to fans. I think that'd be disastrous. But there is room to improve. Even if there were simply an outlet for which fans could understand why it was j.j. pippitone, for example, scored Spirit of Atlanta's drumline over phantom's the other day, I think relations between fans and judges would improve dramatically. I understand, obviously, that anyone can read the scoring sheets and the rubric by which judges are guided. But it's also obvious, since we keep having this same discussion on this and other message boards, that it is insufficient. In sum, I think much of the problem is due to the facelessness of the judging community, and a general lack of a grasp of the sense in why judges score the way they do. If even this could be improved, the activity would benefit in a number of ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin I. Zing Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 So, how would you like to see things judged? ANSWER: EXCLUSIVELY from the cellphone keypads of everyone who purchased a ticket. And thanks for asking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 All I want is more objectivity... Objectivity is impossible in a completely 'Subjective' competition system. This is not like baseball (most runs across home plate) or football (most touchdowns or field goals) where the the scoring is objective and some ref calls are subjective, it is like ice dancing, gymnastics, or even like a barbecue tasting contest where scoring is 100% opinion, 100% subjective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 ANSWER: EXCLUSIVELY from the cellphone keypads of everyone who purchased a ticket. And thanks for asking. Sort of like a 100% call-in vote to determine the winner on American Idol; yes-sir that is the way to go I tell ya: NOT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
actucker Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 But they are accountable. They must be, and simply because there exists a lack of recourse in other sports doesn't mean the issue is dismissed. Just this week an Olympic boxing ref's decision was overturned. Baseball umpires hold press conferences. In the NFL & NBA we now have instant replay and challenges to calls on the field. I think these changes came about from a desire in the fan base for those activities for more accountability. Those organizations responded. It is not unreasonable for DCI to follow suit. And to explain further, I understand and agree with the notion that judges or referees deserve a bit of sequestration from the public-at-large. I think it is vital to the sport/activity. I'm not an advocate of collective judging, or turning over the judgement of the quality of a drum corps show solely to fans. I think that'd be disastrous. But there is room to improve. Even if there were simply an outlet for which fans could understand why it was j.j. pippitone, for example, scored Spirit of Atlanta's drumline over phantom's the other day, I think relations between fans and judges would improve dramatically. I understand, obviously, that anyone can read the scoring sheets and the rubric by which judges are guided. But it's also obvious, since we keep having this same discussion on this and other message boards, that it is insufficient. In sum, I think much of the problem is due to the facelessness of the judging community, and a general lack of a grasp of the sense in why judges score the way they do. If even this could be improved, the activity would benefit in a number of ways. The fact is, as long as there are fans, these conversations will happen. Its just more public now in the internet age. The fact that those conversations keep happening is not evidence that there is anything wrong with the judging community, it is instead simply evidence that there are people who are passionate about the activity. The fact is, there are ways in which the judges are held accountable to the corps and to DCI. They publish tapes that are distributed to the corps staff. There are often critiques at which staff and judges can meet face to face to discuss commentary. In many ways, DCI judges are MORE accountable than the officials in other activities. The fact that it doesn't show up on ESPN doesn't change that. Frankly, as a staff member, I wouldn't want judge commentary or explanations to be distributed to the public. I think that commentary is between the judge and the corps and staff. There's a reason its not posted online. Unfortunately, the reality TV/google/wikipedia phenomenon has kind of bred this culture where every bit of information is immediately available to the public, and thus the public thinks all information should be public domain. That is not the case. We don't need to know why Spirit beat Phantom's percussion section. We need, instead, to trust the system that DCI has put in place. If we want to better understand the process, there are already resources out there, without having to hear anything from the judges themselves. Its not hard to find the judging sheets. They are very clear what the criteria are. The recaps outline the numbers to the micro detail. You can see every number that a judge puts down. Simply going through that much research will make a lot of sense out of the recaps. Other sports have added things like instant replay, and referee challenges because the teams and executives within that league agreed that it was what was best for the sport. Public opinion had very little to do with it. The other major difference is that the things that instant replay deal with are OBJECTIVE judgements. Either a player kept his foot inbounds, or he didn't. Either the ball was foul or it was fair. Drum corps is subjective, and as such, no amount of instant replay or "accountability" will ever contribute to an overturned decision. When was the last time you saw a judge for Olympic gymnastics explain his decision to anyone other than the IOC? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tariq.shah Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Well, sure, pure objectivity is an impossibility. That's granted. However, whether a given pitch was actually over the plate or not is a matter of conjecture all the time. Was the pitch a given "strike?" Was SCV's opening drill "clean?" These days we have all sorts of cameras and computer software to demonstrate to the audience watching a given game whether or not a given call was actually "correct" as defined by a given sports system of rules and regulations. It hasn't been until recently that refs had the ability to actually revise bad calls on the field or court. -But I don't even think DCI needs to go that far. This is what i'm getting at. I mean there isn't even an outlet for the audience to know why BD's visual score was the score it was on a given night. Maybe post a tape on dci.org. Maybe not even that. The fact is this isn't going away. And it isn't just because the DCI audience is dopey and doesn't get it. It can be improved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
actucker Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Well, sure, pure objectivity is an impossibility. That's granted. However, whether a given pitch was actually over the plate or not is a matter of conjecture all the time. Was the pitch a given "strike?" Was SCV's opening drill "clean?" These days we have all sorts of cameras and computer software to demonstrate to the audience watching a given game whether or not a given call was actually "correct" as defined by a given sports system of rules and regulations. It hasn't been until recently that refs had the ability to actually revise bad calls on the field or court. -But I don't even think DCI needs to go that far. This is what i'm getting at. I mean there isn't even an outlet for the audience to know why BD's visual score was the score it was on a given night. Maybe post a tape on dci.org. Maybe not even that. The fact is this isn't going away. And it isn't just because the DCI audience is dopey and doesn't get it. It can be improved. Again, judges tapes are not the public's business. Reasoning behind numbers are NOT the public's business. If you want to know why a number is what it is, read the sheets. You're asking for something that would literally be completely unprecedented in any other comparable activity. You're not going to get it, and you shouldn't. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fsubone Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Again, judges tapes are not the public's business. Reasoning behind numbers are NOT the public's business. If you want to know why a number is what it is, read the sheets. You're asking for something that would literally be completely unprecedented in any other comparable activity. You're not going to get it, and you shouldn't. They used to put the judges tapes on the DVDs, how would it be any different if they did it now? It's not like the judges travel around in these little plastic bubbles, they are people too. They should be able to justify their opinions just as much as all of us posting stuff on here. Do you not agree that it would quell some of the discontent we see on here if people could actually hear and find out the reasoning behind the judge's decisions? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Well, sure, pure objectivity is an impossibility. That's granted. However, whether a given pitch was actually over the plate or not is a matter of conjecture all the time. Was the pitch a given "strike?" I stated that there is some subjectivity in all competition via calls by the refs or umps. But the scoring, the scoring, the scoring, itself in something like baseball is objective. While an ump may get a call incorrect from time to time, even at home plate when a player slides into home, scoring in baseball is not given through the opinion of the umpire's calls like the scoring in DCI is given by the opinion of the judges; the scoring in baseball occurs when a player traverses the bases and steps, or slides, across home plate and is therefore (objective). The only thing in drum corps which is objective and can effect the score is a timing penalty; other than that the scoring in drum corps is purely subjective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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