Plan9 Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 (edited) I absolutely agree there are brilliant moments in BD's drill. I didn't realize there were so many callbacks to previous years as fsubone mentions. But... your mention of "Mini plays, mini moments, all orchestrated and meaning something individually" is what I'm talking about. It isn't just a BD thing; every corps does it more or less (of course you have to break up sometimes just to get the right people into position for the next big visual). My point is that BD historically likes to dwell in those separate mini moments - someone called it "multiple visual focus" earlier I think - more than most corps do. And, since people can only really watch one thing at a time, they don't get the emotional hit from it that they get from a more unified visual. The crowd (humans who are mostly visual) loves BD in those moments when they make a cohesive form, and seem to respond as one would expect. But not when they break up into smaller (and yes - easier to perform) bits. The smaller the unit, the easier it is to hold it together. I think this is the real reason they do it. They make the most of if artistically, but the reason is practical. Granted, if it weren't a common (universal) technique in drum corps, then the first corps to do it would be hailed as innovative. I suppose the director of the first film or tv show to break up the screen into separate mini-screens each with a different scene was hailed as innovative too. But you don't see it much. Why? If every show had it in every episode it would not be considered exciting anymore. My experience (FWIW) is that while a corps is in this 9-ring circus state, the audience just sits there waiting for the next big moment. Am I wrong? How often to people sit up and cheer during that part of a corps' show? Almost never (the last part of Carpe Noctem comes to mind, but it's rare). I think they do it because they want to spin their wheels for a while and for whatever reason they know it won't cost them much on the GE sheets as long as it seems sufficiently clever. If Michael Cesario et al, decide to 'adjust' the sheets even more to increase the benefit to holding together larger patterns throughout the show, BD would adapt (as people keep saying they would) and then don't be surprised if the crowd starts to appreciate BD a bunch more more. Pete, to some degree, design is a matter of extremes. Some of the best song writers/producers of our time will tell you the critical importance of contrast...without contrast the WOW becomes wow. So....I highlighted a few of your comments. Yes, everyone loves big moments and they almost always generate response, but the rest of the piece is part of the story as well and is not just filler ("spin their wheels for a while"! You don't cheer every play of a football game. That running play that gains 3 yards is necessary to move the ball, it isn't flashy but it may be complex and certainly critical to the series of downs. Then a big pass gets you out of your seat, but it was the 3 yard gain that perhaps set it up and made it possible. Basically I'm saying that it all matters! You also refer to our human inability "to see more than one thing at a time"....true, but that's the interesting part about these designs....where ever you look there's something new going on with every viewing. The thing about BD 2010, it is not (as you suggest) broken up into smaller parts to be "easier"...if you look you will notice it is orchestrated with other actions across the field...something that is infinitely more difficult than a line unison, and occurs identical every time. Then when it all comes together ....the contrast of the disjointed against the completed jointed...is huge. I've often used Cirque as comparison to the recent BD designs...that is a very accurate comparison. Lots of "9 ring circus" stuff going on and huge (and often breath-taking) focused moments..........they understand that the human mind has a great capacity to be overwhelmed..and if done correctly...the resolve can be just as overwhelming. Edited September 27, 2012 by Plan9 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Freedman Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Pete, to some degree, design is a matter of extremes. Some of the best song writers/producers of our time will tell you the critical importance of contrast...without contrast the WOW becomes wow. So....I highlighted a few of your comments. Yes, everyone loves big moments and they almost always generate response, but the rest of the piece is part of the story as well and is not just filler ("spin their wheels for a while"! You don't cheer every play of a football game. That running play that gains 3 yards is necessary to move the ball, it isn't flashy but it may be complex and certainly critical to the series of downs. Then a big pass gets you out of your seat, but it was the 3 yard gain that perhaps set it up and made it possible. Basically I'm saying that it all matters! You also refer to our human inability "to see more than one thing at a time"....true, but that's the interesting part about these designs....where ever you look there's something new going on with every viewing. The thing about BD 2010, it is not (as you suggest) broken up into smaller parts to be "easier"...if you look you will notice it is orchestrated with other actions across the field...something that is infinitely more difficult than a line unison, and occurs identical every time. Then when it all comes together ....the contrast of the disjointed against the completed jointed...is huge. I've often used Cirque as comparison to the recent BD designs...that is a very accurate comparison. Lots of "9 ring circus" stuff going on and huge (and often breath-taking) focused moments..........they understand that the human mind has a great capacity to be overwhelmed..and if done correctly...the resolve can be just as overwhelming. My points: - Thank you for motivating me to go set up the computer with the big screen tv and sound to watch that great show again! - I love the Blue Devils. I compared the show you mentioned with 2009 and 2011, and cadets 2010. Tough job, but somebody's gotta do it :-) - We are talking about small differences between emphasis on certain types of drill, not fundamental differences - I agree with everything you are saying. We disagree only about the relative amount of time spent in the 9 ring circus with BD compared to other corps. My suspicion (I haven't compiled a list of segments of different drill types with time spreads) is only that the amount of time BD spends in the 9 ring circus leaves the audience less than completely satisfied visually. - It may be done in part for the reasons you specify, but I believe it is done more often than that alone would explain, presumably because of some effect on the score. - Imagine plotting a curve of (visual) audience engagement; it goes lower during the softer periods and zooms higher during the big visual moments. BD spends a bit more time down low visually. - Also, I'm not sure I agree that it is harder to do the 9 ring circus. In a given sub-form, presumably one person has to guide on a different form, but the rest of the marchers simply have to guide on that first person. Just as if they were in a small marching unit. The drill is still difficult of course (it's top level DCI!), but it's less judgeable across the field - which is a known issue in drum corps drill that is therefore always relevant in drill design (I've always believed). It's a key reason asymmetry was so successful in the first place. - I just watched BD 2010 (what a great show!), and while in recent years all the corps are getting better about this (presumably due to the changes in judging) it is still noticeable in all the corps, and in BD in particular. This show is no exception even though there were several breathtaking moments. BD seems to be figuring something out that may have something to do with what we are talking about, because their big visuals are more frequent than in earlier years. But there still seems to be more downtime than can be explained by your reasons alone. The corps spent a fair amount of time (less than usual for them, perhaps) broken up into separate units doing fundamentally different things, and I saw no way a judge could compare the location of one unit to another and say "that's in the wrong place". That means they are preventing possible negatives on visual ensemble, and presumably not paying the price in GE. The judges agree with the corps, and with you, but I'm just saying this may be where the audience is sometimes unsatisfied. But it's just a hypothesis. - The effect I'm talking about is more dramatic in earlier years. And indeed, BD is getting more crowd pleasing lately, I think. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Pete, to some degree, design is a matter of extremes. Some of the best song writers/producers of our time will tell you the critical importance of contrast...without contrast the WOW becomes wow. So....I highlighted a few of your comments. Yes, everyone loves big moments and they almost always generate response, but the rest of the piece is part of the story as well and is not just filler ("spin their wheels for a while"! You don't cheer every play of a football game. That running play that gains 3 yards is necessary to move the ball, it isn't flashy but it may be complex and certainly critical to the series of downs. Then a big pass gets you out of your seat, but it was the 3 yard gain that perhaps set it up and made it possible. Basically I'm saying that it all matters! You also refer to our human inability "to see more than one thing at a time"....true, but that's the interesting part about these designs....where ever you look there's something new going on with every viewing. The thing about BD 2010, it is not (as you suggest) broken up into smaller parts to be "easier"...if you look you will notice it is orchestrated with other actions across the field...something that is infinitely more difficult than a line unison, and occurs identical every time. Then when it all comes together ....the contrast of the disjointed against the completed jointed...is huge. I've often used Cirque as comparison to the recent BD designs...that is a very accurate comparison. Lots of "9 ring circus" stuff going on and huge (and often breath-taking) focused moments..........they understand that the human mind has a great capacity to be overwhelmed..and if done correctly...the resolve can be just as overwhelming. hmm. still waiting to be overwhelmed by that show. well I mean other than the percussion filth at the end of the drum solo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nngs9 Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 hmm. still waiting to be overwhelmed by that show. well I mean other than the percussion filth at the end of the drum solo If i were a Blue Devil this year i'd engrave this post on the inside of my ring......... hahahahahahahahah 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bad Bari Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 If i were a Blue Devil this year i'd engrave this post on the inside of my ring......... hahahahahahahahah Yeah, I'd probably take a different approach... Instead of trying to make myself feel bad as you might like, I instead would go back to polishing my championship ring and would start planning for my next trip to the midwest and east where I could once again... Win! It isn't everything... To those who never do it! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nngs9 Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Yeah, I'd probably take a different approach... Instead of trying to make myself feel bad as you might like, I instead would go back to polishing my championship ring and would start planning for my next trip to the midwest and east where I could once again... Win! It isn't everything... To those who never do it! I think you missed my point..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bad Bari Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 I think you missed my point..... No I got it... You were being a smarmy jerk... I returned the sentiment in like kind! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nngs9 Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 No I got it... You were being a smarmy jerk... I returned the sentiment in like kind! Yup, you missed my point entirely, i'm actually on your side here............................................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skevinp Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 No I got it... You were being a smarmy jerk... I returned the sentiment in like kind! I think he meant use it as motivation, in a positive way. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nngs9 Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 I think he meant use it as motivation, in a positive way. Exactly, i honestly just can't wrap my head around someone making a statement like Reams.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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