For Dinosaurs Only

[GUARDLING]

I may not always agree with you but I have no end of respect for your candour!

Each point shoule be it's own new thread IMHO.

thanks,...I think.......lol .... did I answer you at all?.....lol

Edited September 5, 2012 by GUARDLING

[BRASSO]

Well if you feel that way - start a Justin Beiber Fan Liberation Front (the JBFLF!) and let me know how many stalwarts flock to your banner. I will continue to consider his music crap. After all - as we are reminded many times, it's all opinion, right? If thinking the Beib is crap music constitutes my most intolerant thought, I'm probably doing OK, no?

You're a fan, right? You've got Beiber Fever, don't you?

I get this. I agree with you. Bieber's music is crap. No recriminations should come your way for saying this either in my opinion. But likewise, why can't people say ( for one example ) that the Blue Devils show for them was crap ? Why is their opinion devalued ? I personally liked the BD show this year a lot more than a lot of my fellow fans. But so what ? I don't devalue their personal assessment, just as much as those that think that Jersey Surf for them was crap. Noone should feel recrimination or hostility for expressing their personal tastes in something as intensely personal as Music. I sometimes am at odds with my older friends that believe todays shows are boring, or whatever. But I don't devalue their assessement. Likewise, there are fans that are bored with the earlier decades shows. I don't agree with them, but so what ? I try not to devalue their assessment. In the end, neither effected one iota what I like, so my position is, its all good, regarding what others think in music and in Corps shows. Seriously. Then moving forward from there, I wonder what we need to do in these shows in the future to grow an audience base. Thats where my interests primarily lie. Thats important. We cant tread water, as expenses increase, so audience size must increase as well for this activity to be sustainable long term.

Edited September 5, 2012 by BRASSO

[Grandpa]

thanks,...I think.......lol .... did I answer you at all?.....lol

Yes you did - thank you! Some things I had surmised, others are pretty new to me. I'd like to discuss, but I have to work in the morning so I should really get to bed!

To be continued, I hope.

[rayfallon]

I don't see those things as indicative of something 'wrong' or 'problems'. That is just the way things were. I'm glad they changed things through the 70's to eliminate the set-piece drills, but I don't see them as problems or something wrong.

I preferred marching mallets to no mallets...even the clanging bells of the 70's. I liked it better when they were grounded, but at least they were available by the mid-70's.

But what some say are 'problems' are just those people not liking something...to which I say...too bad. Financial problems? Sure, drum corps have pretty much always been on the edge of existence financially.

I agree with much of what you say Mike (no surprise there) but I'm not sure our activity was always this financially fragile. But I don't blame that fragility on the evolution of the art. I believe it's the evolution of our economic Universe. What isn't financially fragile right now, besides Apple?, and watch them if the iPhone 5 bombs!

I think there's a misconception that evolution occurs because Nature needs it to - to be adaptive is to be better. Not necessarily so - we just adapt - some of it's better some not so much - but as far as I can see it's irreversible.

[Grandpa]

I get this. I agree with you. Bieber's music is crap. No recriminations should come your way for saying this either in my opinion. But likewise, why can't people say ( for one example ) that the Blue Devils show for them was crap ? Why is their opinion devalued ? I personally liked the BD show this year a lot more than a lot of my fellow fans. But so what ? I don't devalue their personal assessment, just as much as those that think that Jersey Surf for them was crap. Noone should feel recrimination of hostility for expressing their personal tastes in something as intensely personal as Music.

I think out of respect because there are doubtless some BD members on here reading these posts (whereas the Beib probably doesn't know or care if we exist - he's too busy shagging Selina...)

Which is why in my post I try only to voice concern over design, direction and the difficulties of touring. I know it's a fine distinction, but It's an attempt to be honest while being respectful of what these kids accomplish.

[BRASSO]

I think out of respect because there are doubtless some BD members on here reading these posts (whereas the Beib probably doesn't know or care if we exist - he's too busy shagging Selina...)

Which is why in my post I try only to voice concern over design, direction and the difficulties of touring. I know it's a fine distinction, but It's an attempt to be honest while being respectful of what these kids accomplish.

I understand the sentiment. I am of the sentiment however that kids are big enough and emotionally strong enough at 19-22 to handle a criticism of their show. Its not directed at them. They didn't design the show, so they don't share in its responsibility for it. We always respect the performer. Thats a given. They are simply amazing. They do more out on the field then I could ever do. Way more. But at 19-22 some are in uniform and getting shot at far from home, and so we have perspective that Drum Corps young adults are comfortable enough in their own skin to laugh off anything said on here in criticism, as its not directed at them at all in any way, shape, or form anyway.That said, I respect your position to go lightly in public re. a Corps show too.

Edited September 5, 2012 by BRASSO

[actucker]

No it was not transitive in any way. Plus, a show response runs the gamut from exhilaration to emotions filled with disapointment or feelings of watching a car or train wreck.... but there is lots of room between these two extremes of emotions that all of us at one time or another experience in any show performance in the performing arts.

But also to be clear, if a show was exhilarating for a person, well then it was. Likewise, if it was a train wreck for them, then yes it was a train wreck. These things are always seen and viewed in personal terms. And ALL reactions are perfectly acceptable.. or should be, imo.

There is no right or wrong answers when it comes to Musical preference or performing arts preference.

Thanks for clarifying. Hard to gauge intent via text.

But there is a very specific connotation to calling something a train wreck, or crap. It denotes an inherent lack of respect for the work put into it, and a general attitude that something is worthless. You will, at no point, ever hear me (or I guess in this case, read me) call a show either of those things. I may discuss not liking a show, or musical work etc, but having put my own work out there from a writer's, performer's, and teacher's perspective, I have a lot of respect for anyone willing to do that themselves, whether I like what they have produced or not.

The issue here is, where do you draw the line between having an opinion and being disrespectful. It comes down to being truly honest with yourself (this is not necessarily directed at you or anyone else on this thread). Does one really think a certain show/performance/recording is crap, or has one been blinded by a distaste for something to the point where it is impossible to see any merit to it at all? I can't stand a single shred of Lady Gaga's music. I think she's capable of much more musically than she puts on record. On the other hand, I think, through her popularity and status, she has been able to do some fantastic things through her work with various charities and through her social advocacy. I've heard more than one touching story regarding how her music helped certain individuals through a tough time. That is worthy of my respect. In a more directly relevant vein, I couldn't stand Cadets' Christmas show this year. I just like more depth to my musical selections, and I really hated some of the visual aspects. On the other hand, I know how hard each and ever member of that corps works. I also appreciate the completely stunning drill that they performed, and the fantastic percussion section they had, and so on. They did what they do extremely well, and I believe they gave their members the experience they were looking for. Who am I to say there's no worth to that.

The point is, not liking something, or not understanding something doesn't make it ok to be disrespectful towards it. Its, of course, a free country, so everyone is free to say what they want, but that doesn't make it right.

[MikeD]

Then you will be entirely happy if we go back to no electronics? After all, it wasn't a problem when we didn't have them!

It wasn't a 'problem' when horns were G horns with one valve. It was just the way it was. It wasn't a problem when guards did no guard work to speak of at all. I'm glad things have changed over time, but I don't think that what the norm was at any point in time was some sort of 'problem'...including today. IMO drum corps should have no limits on instruments or size, but it is not a 'problem' that things are what they are.

[MikeD]

I agree with much of what you say Mike (no surprise there) but I'm not sure our activity was always this financially fragile. But I don't blame that fragility on the evolution of the art. I believe it's the evolution of our economic Universe. What isn't financially fragile right now, besides Apple?, and watch them if the iPhone 5 bombs!

Hey Ray! Long time no see! I recall Blue Rock riding around on the worst busses I ever saw...it was pretty well known in my era that 27th barely scraped by. I saw all sorts of small GSC corps fold...a lot due to not having the funds to go it alone when their sponsors pulled back. The Cadets nearly folded more than once due to $$$....St Lucy's folded when the parish decided it just cost too much after the 69 season. Today...my guess is that there are quite a few corps one unexpected problem away from closing shop. You are 100% right that it was not the art that caused the problems...it was the overall economic environment.

I think there's a misconception that evolution occurs because Nature needs it to - to be adaptive is to be better. Not necessarily so - we just adapt - some of it's better some not so much - but as far as I can see it's irreversible.

Pretty much agree....no surprise!

[corpsband]

put yourself in a teaching position.....how do you account for 5 or 10 % of a score that you dont know a criteria for..think of the 5 or 10 % and how it can change things for a corps that worked on things, things tangibal or at least can be argued , tell 150 kids oh well you really won but tonights audience full of people who love corps B because of region, bias or maybe just because you won to many times and THEY think its time for another....

the same way you account for judges who just aren't buying what you're selling. there's no absolutely no difference :-\

anyhow i don't think the audience should be directly contributing to the number -- it's just too unreliable.

i do think designers who "lose" the audience should get an "F" in general effect. the INTENT of the caption is to prevent corps from presenting programs which might be technically proficient but do not appeal to the general audience. note this means fan in the stands -- not judge in the stands.

the criteria on the effect sheets are designed to assist the adjudicator in evaluating something that nearly everyone understands but almost no one can quite describe in words ie. a show that connects with an audience. unfortunately those descriptors have REPLACED the nebulous concept and it's entirely possible to design shows which satisfy the sheets but completely miss on the connection. it's a classic example of the LETTER of the law eclipsing the SPIRIT of the law.

if most of the audience doesn't "GET" a show on the first read, IMHO the designer has completely failed. note: that does not exclude the idea that upon multiple viewings the program can reveal layers of design that might be missed on the first viewing.

does that mean that some "ART" might be bad drum corps design ? yes it does. a football field is not a fine arts gallery.

Edited September 5, 2012 by corpsband