At What Point ...

[skajerk]

I was just going to post that clip. Since you beat me to it, I'll add this one...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4UoN-4Ou80

[MikeD]

I see your point, but its based on some pretty faulty facts. The vast majority of band programs that I know of are not in any way funded by the taxpayers aside from maybe measly budget for instrument repair, and the use of facilities. Most programs get nearly all of their funding through a booster program and its fundraising efforts. Any one of the patrons that they solicit for fund raising contributions could at any time choose not to continue their contributions. The tax payers themselves don't really have any right to say what should or shouldn't be programed.

The funding of a marching band program depends on the badn program. I've been teachnig MB since 1971, and EVERY program I have been involved with has been primarily funded by the school district. Booster fundraising augments that as needed, but the school district pays for most of it.

In any case, it is irrelevant whether or not the boosters are paying or the distrcit directly. If the booster group is an official group tied to the music program, any money raised belongs to the district in the legal sense. The school admin could, if they so desired, use that money as they wish. In reality, it doesn't happen, and most booster groups don't even realize that situation, but in my School Law class when I got my masters in Educational Administration and Supervision, that topic came up.

Also, as long as the marching band program is a scholastic-sponsored activity, the school administration, and the board of education (that represents the taxpayers) does indeed have a right to say what can and can't be programmed. Most of the time there are no issues, of course, but in a case like this where there was a complaint...they can force changes if they desire. They could also have told the guy to go pound sand, of course, but school admins and boards of ed tend to want zero controversy in their program offerings in these lawsuit-happy times, and will react to even one complaint like this, sad to say.

If it were an independent activity, like a drum corps, that would be a different story.

[JimF-LowBari]

I see your point, but its based on some pretty faulty facts. The vast majority of band programs that I know of are not in any way funded by the taxpayers aside from maybe measly budget for instrument repair, and the use of facilities. Most programs get nearly all of their funding through a booster program and its fundraising efforts. Any one of the patrons that they solicit for fund raising contributions could at any time choose not to continue their contributions. The tax payers themselves don't really have any right to say what should or shouldn't be programed.

Money aside, the band still represents the school and the area the students come from. Plus (as you mentioned) the band still uses school tax provided practice areas (band room, fields, whatever) and the football field where they perform. And if the band hosts a show to raise money that's more use of tax payer provided facilities.

But how many band directors are paid by the booster club and not tax payer money?

As Mike said depends on the school district who pays for what. But saying taxpayers having no rights to say what should be programmed come across as telling people to shut up and forget that fre speech thing....

Edited September 27, 2012 by JimF-LowBari

[Stu]

I was never aware of any curse words in Bluecoats' "Brave New World," nor do I remember that being a topic on here...but I was in China in 2011 until June 23 and brain dead for an additional couple of days. What does anyone remember about that? Was it really obvious? Did some just think they heard such a word. If there, did removing it create a gap that had to be filled in?

In the first few shows during the opening of Bluecoats Creep a voice-over came from the amp system, "What the H***..."; they removed the curse word a few shows later. I was in the audience for that live theater broadcast of the first show sitting behind some middle school kids and band moms. The kids laughed and the moms gasped. Whether or not I agree or disagree with the word usage, the point was the musical staff of the Bluecoats did purposely push the boundaries of community standards.

As for Boston's "Core of Temptation," I never understood what the fuss was about. But by then, five and six months before my cataract surgery, my vision was 20/400 with glasses and there were a lot of things I couldn't discern from a distance. (I didn't know it was as bad as it was because it was so gradual.) I've seen photos of the guard costumes and realized I missed the full impact of them, but was that the sexual innuendo to which you are referring. (I haven't seen the show on DVD yet.)

Just watch the Temptation video. The show concept, various visual suggestions, and flat out innuendos make the famous VK Cymbal line come across as Nuns. Again, whether or not I agree or disagree with the usage, the point was the visual staff of the corps of Boston did purposely push the boundaries of community standards.

Edited September 27, 2012 by Stu

[BRASSO]

As Mike said depends on the school district who pays for what. But saying taxpayers having no rights to say what should be programmed come across as telling people to shut up and forget that fre speech thing....

Exactly.

Eventually, any band that gets a reputation for offending the local community is a band that ultimately will fail anyway. The money to support the band doesn't grow on trees. So whether the band's funding comes from primarily taxes, or from fundraising, its typically coming from the same geograpgical area. The public is the ultimate " customer " of the local marching band and like any enterprise, in the end, the customer is always right adage typically prevails, whether we think it should be that way, or not.

Edited September 27, 2012 by BRASSO

[actucker]

Money aside, the band still represents the school and the area the students come from. Plus (as you mentioned) the band still uses school tax provided practice areas (band room, fields, whatever) and the football field where they perform. And if the band hosts a show to raise money that's more use of tax payer provided facilities.

But how many band directors are paid by the booster club and not tax payer money?

As Mike said depends on the school district who pays for what. But saying taxpayers having no rights to say what should be programmed come across as telling people to shut up and forget that fre speech thing....

The public can of course say whatever they want, but in my opinion, the band director has the right to dismiss those comments completely, as does the school district. The idea that the general public should get any say in education is like saying I should be able to tell my dentist how to clean my teeth. Sure, I have that right, but the fact is I know next to nothing about dentistry. The problem is that being an educator is largely dismissed as a profession that requires no actual knowledge. Educators are considered glorified babysitters by the majority of the public. This is evidenced in the fact that teachers are held accountable for grades these days rather than students. Educators are experts in their field, the same way a dentist is, or a rocket scientist that works for NASA. That doesn't mean that they are infallible, but the public elects a school board to decide which experts to hire and which not to. If they have a complaint, they can of course take that complaint to the school board. The problem is, the school board allows the public to dictate policy when the public doesn't have any idea what that policy should be.

[actucker]

The funding of a marching band program depends on the badn program. I've been teachnig MB since 1971, and EVERY program I have been involved with has been primarily funded by the school district. Booster fundraising augments that as needed, but the school district pays for most of it.

In any case, it is irrelevant whether or not the boosters are paying or the distrcit directly. If the booster group is an official group tied to the music program, any money raised belongs to the district in the legal sense. The school admin could, if they so desired, use that money as they wish. In reality, it doesn't happen, and most booster groups don't even realize that situation, but in my School Law class when I got my masters in Educational Administration and Supervision, that topic came up.

Also, as long as the marching band program is a scholastic-sponsored activity, the school administration, and the board of education (that represents the taxpayers) does indeed have a right to say what can and can't be programmed. Most of the time there are no issues, of course, but in a case like this where there was a complaint...they can force changes if they desire. They could also have told the guy to go pound sand, of course, but school admins and boards of ed tend to want zero controversy in their program offerings in these lawsuit-happy times, and will react to even one complaint like this, sad to say.

If it were an independent activity, like a drum corps, that would be a different story.

We must live/work in very different areas. I've literally never seen a program that was funded more than 30% or so by taxpayer money. Sure you can make the argument that money raised for the band by the boosters is "school board money", but the tax payers didn't contribute a dime of it, so it still doesn't give the individual taxpayer a say in design. I understand what the laws are. I'm simply discussing what is and isn't right from a moral point of view.

Should we be holding design meetings in public forums? Should I invite citizens to my house while I write the percussion book? I'm not advocating doing offensive shows just for the sake of doing offensive shows. I'm not even saying that people don't have a right to be offended and to voice that opinion. I'm simply saying that ultimately, its up to the band director to decide what he puts on the field. If there are consequences, they should come from the school board, not the citizenry, and covering a historical event that actually happened should be fair game as long as its done respectfully.

[Lincoln]

In the first few shows during the opening of Bluecoats Creep a voice-over came from the amp system, "What the H***...";

Is this the same word that Vanguard's entire show was based on in 2011 as announced by Brandt Crocker?

Edited September 27, 2012 by LincolnV

[JimF-LowBari]

The public can of course say whatever they want, but in my opinion, the band director has the right to dismiss those comments completely, as does the school district. The idea that the general public should get any say in education is like saying I should be able to tell my dentist how to clean my teeth. Sure, I have that right, but the fact is I know next to nothing about dentistry. The problem is that being an educator is largely dismissed as a profession that requires no actual knowledge. Educators are considered glorified babysitters by the majority of the public. This is evidenced in the fact that teachers are held accountable for grades these days rather than students. Educators are experts in their field, the same way a dentist is, or a rocket scientist that works for NASA. That doesn't mean that they are infallible, but the public elects a school board to decide which experts to hire and which not to. If they have a complaint, they can of course take that complaint to the school board. The problem is, the school board allows the public to dictate policy when the public doesn't have any idea what that policy should be.

Where I'm at a lot of school boards don't know what policy should be either.

In a perfect world we'd elect school boards based on expertise but.... In the SDs near me, lot of people are elected based on their complaints about cost of education and don't have a clue what really goes on in the budget (based on conversations I had with campaigners). Then there are the board members who base policy of really dumb ideas like "why waste a lot of money of dumb kids" when talking about dyslexic students (sis in law taught Reading Recovery which was cut based on this). Then there was the dentist in my old district that tried to push a swimming pool in the HS. Why? cuz his kid was on the swim team and hated the drive...

But more on topic, if the local band puts on a show that I feel is offensive I will complain. Should I think "Gee I'll let the experts decide what goes on in the school"? Or should I go with the idea that the band/school is representing my area. And God knows my current town has enough baggage with how other places see it, mostly old racial views.

Edited September 27, 2012 by JimF-LowBari

[Lincoln]

Just watch the Temptation video. The show concept, various visual suggestions, and flat out innuendos make the famous VK Cymbal line come across as Nuns.

I guess you haven't seen Phantom's show from '91.