Boston Crusaders not in TOC shows?

[glory]

...What is under debate now, however, is not a DCI showcase - rather, the G7 making a spectacle of themselves, so to speak. From what we hear, the G7 are headed toward running their own series of shows.

I must have missed the bulletin. Where is this notion coming from that these corps are breaking away? There was a presentation two or so years ago. What's changed since other than the line-up?

HH

[bluecoats88]

I must have missed the bulletin. Where is this notion coming from that these corps are breaking away? There was a presentation two or so years ago. What's changed since other than the line-up?

HH

Supposedly there was a private email stream between Hop/Gibbs/Fiedler which somehow got sent to someone else besides thohse 3 and they decided to post it to DCP.

In this email, which I have read this morning, the three talk about what they can do to make more for their and the other 4 top 7 corps. However, from what I read, this email is not something new since within the text they talk about what their plans are for the 2012 season and what they can do in 2013. so since the 2012 season is over I would guess that this email exchange is probably about a year old.

[cixelsyd]

I must have missed the bulletin. Where is this notion coming from that these corps are breaking away?

I did not say they were breaking away. I do hear that they want to run their own series of shows, whether they break away or not.

[BRASSO]

Showing off the best is one thing. But hope those groups you mentioned also make sure that the non-elites in their activity are healthy.

They sure do too, as you said. NBA, MLB, NHL, NFL make sure there is the future oppportunity to have lower placing teams potentially rise up in placement the future, by enacting a sequential order draft of players where the bottom finishing teams get to draft the best Prep players first, and then the top finishing teams draft last. As a result, unlike DCI Drum Corps competition where the Cadevaliers ( Cadets, Devils, Cavaliers... just 3 Corps ) since the mid 70's have won 85% of all the DCI Titles, these sports franchises keep the competition for their sport's Title fresh and exciting. What the G7 are attempting to do here however is to take their already advantaged position in recruiting and in placement positions historically and make it even MORE advantaged by creating a future permanent collective Slotting System of 7 Corps within the World Class Competitition Division. Thats unbelievable to me. If allowed, thats a rigged competitive system for sure, imo.

Edited November 29, 2012 by BRASSO

[cavies79]

Before I post this, I am a fan of the Boston Crusaders. I thought the TOC was supposed to be corps that had previously won a DCI Title. Am I wrong? If that is true, shouldn't only Blue Devils, SCV, Cavies, Phantom, Madison, and Cadets be in these shows? Wouldn't that be the best thing to do? Just my 2 cents.

[cavies79]

In the original proposal, the G7 plan suggested a certain number of shows, I believe 12-14 in all that would be held in venues that could hold at least 10,000-12,000 people and 10,000-12,000 tickets would be sold. I would love that to happen, but I don't think it will. While there is a need for better marketing, drum corps is a niche activity with a limited fan base. Also, with no disrespect to the corps involved, I'm not sure it would be as exiting a spectacle as they believe or that it would attract the audiences they expect. Two, maybe three of the corps may see this as a good thing. Four or five may not. My reasons:

Blue Devils: always put on a competitive show, but they're oblivious to anything outside their performances which probably helps them to be continual contenders. Their objective is to push the bar and win, and where this happens probably does not matter as much as that it does happen. If Music in Motion guarantees more revenue, great. If not, they're fine no matter where they compete.

Carolina Crown: as long as the venues are not overpriced, which they might be to ensure the financial promises made, chances are these shows attract a younger crowd that goes wild for Crown. But if tickets are out of range for 16-22 year olds, the crowd may be tepid at best and Crown, which often responds best when the crowd goes wild, may be tepid as well.

Cavaliers: They will be contenders again, and 2012 was an off year, but 2013 may not be the year they return to glory. A major concern of many last season was that the leadership and design team are not of the same caliber as in the past, and while Cavies always have a good number of age outs and kids who only march one year, last year they supposedly had more than usual which means another year with a good number of rookies. They may surprise everyone but it could also take another year or two before they are back to where they were. Would being at the bottom of the pack in Music in Motion shows be all that worthwhile?

Cadets: If Georg Hopkins is one of the creators of the plan, Cadets will have to stick with it, but will it be in their best interest if it's a financial flop? Finances seem to be a challenge for Cadets.

Phantom: Finances are a problem for Phantom too.

SCV: I am hoping that SCV is beginning a renaissance, but while they've placed in the top 7 most years, they are hardly what they were. I don't see Music in Motion as an advantage or disadvantage for them.

Bluecoats: while underrated is the word that I think best describes them, prudent and fiscally conservative are also apt descriptions. They were one of the first corps to adopt a business model and each year they produce high quality shows a low budget for a top 12 corps. If Music in Motion shows do not pay off, they'll probably not continue.

For overall success with shows, you need a mix of corps to enthuse a crowd and please the varied people in attendance. Corps such as BAC and Madison, regardless of placement can do that, and a good mix of corps from 1st-23rd will do that too (I am including Oregon Crusaders along with last year's 22 WC corps). For shows that only include the top corps, less is more, and I'd recommend that Music in Motion shows only include the previous year's top 5 with perhaps a wild card for a corps that may be in the top 5 in the standings but did not place in the top 5 the previous year, but there should be no more than four of these shows. This would build up excitement while not taking away from all the corps that contribute to the excitement that is DCI.

Nothing against Bluecoats or Carolina Crown, but if you are going to call this the "Tour of Champions", I would put Madison in and take those 2 out. Remember Madison won 2 DCI titles (1975, 1988). I really thought that this G7 (TOC) was meant to be those corps that won at least 1 title.

[BRASSO]

Before I post this, I am a fan of the Boston Crusaders. I thought the TOC was supposed to be corps that had previously won a DCI Title. Am I wrong? If that is true, shouldn't only Blue Devils, SCV, Cavies, Phantom, Madison, and Cadets be in these shows? Wouldn't that be the best thing to do? Just my 2 cents.

There can be different interpretations for the term " Champions ", I suppose... both a literal interpretation, ie they actually were first place " Champions", and then the definition that is broader where the Corps perform like " Champions " and so forth. That said, I do get your point that the " Tour of Champions " probably should have gone out with another name. Also... more telling is that the G7 set up this qualification system for their little group, and the Boston Crusaders qualified... on the field of competition ... for it. So then, what do they do ? They change the rules, drop the " TOC ", then substitute this " Music in Motion " thing, and Boston is not even extended the courtesy to accept or decline. Thats ridiculus, imo. If I'm in this G7, or am Alum of one of these Corps, I wouldn't trust the 2 or 3 pushing this selfish and divisive nonsense at all. If they can change the rules mid stream, drop a qualifying Corps, you can bet your life these 2 would make this go from a G7 to a G2, G3 in a heartbeat if they thought it would advance THEM and/ or their particular Corps over the others in their little group. I don't trust any group that goes behind closed doors in secret to cook up a scheme against others.... and then changes their own rules, wily nily. If a couple of these selfish greedy drivers of this stuff wind up leaving DCI I won't lose any sleep over it. I actually think DCI might in the long run be better off with these 2, 3 taking their act elsewhere.

Edited November 29, 2012 by BRASSO

[JimF-LowBari]

They sure do too, as you said. NBA, MLB, NHL, NFL make sure there is the future oppportunity to have lower placing teams potentially rise up in placement the future, by enacting a sequential order draft of players where the bottom finishing teams get to draft the best Prep players first, and then the top finishing teams draft last. As a result, unlike DCI Drum Corps competition where the Cadevaliers ( Cadets, Devils, Cavaliers... just 3 Corps ) since the mid 70's have won 85% of all the DCI Titles, these sports franchises keep the competition for their sport's Title fresh and exciting. What the G7 are attempting to do here however is to take their already advantaged position in recruiting and in placement positions historically and make it even MORE advantaged by creating a future permanent collective Slotting System of 7 Corps within the World Class Competitition Division. Thats unbelievable to me. If allowed, thats a rigged competitive system for sure, imo.

I forgot about the draft and the NBAs hinky "lottery". I was thinking more of making sure the teams are financially stable and run in a proper matter.(to a certain extent :rolleyes:/> ). Even to the extent of taking over operations of teams. Forget what league has done that recently. All I can remember is the NFL(?) taking over a Texan team in the 1950s and transplanted it to Hershey, PA. If sports teams were run like corps then teams would disappear and people would just say "bad management".

Edited November 29, 2012 by JimF-LowBari

[Jeff Ream]

Versus what? Pre-DCI drum corps under AL, VFW or CYO auspices? 80s DCI when corps were folding by the dozens every year? 90s DCI when DCI was on the verge of bankruptcy and oblivion? I doubt you're aiming at any of those models when you huff indignantly about directors like these. We can debate just how "broken" DCI might be. What's not on the table for discussion is whether its current state is directly the responsiblity of anyone running a corps today - G7 or G27.

HH

I am aiming pretty much from about 1997 on, when many of the changes we now see started to come about.....the regional touring model slowly fading out, the hype for going after band kids ( which they claim isn't happening enough...funny where I used to teach the wall was covered in stuff from DCI)....and sure, some will want to add in Bb and electronics, but I'm really aiming at off the field issues.

Hop pretty much put this outline outthere back then (whoever has the link from the old RAMD discussion, feel free to link it up). We needed to become more national, we needed bigger stadiums.....blah blah blah.'

To be honest, what they are proposing is more of the same, just with some trinkets as far as what the fans get at the shows

[Jeff Ream]

I doubt these systems are as beneficent as you imagine. Local gymnastic and figure skating clubs likely get not one cent from their national governing bodies. On the contrary, I bet the relationship costs them significantly. Even in situations like baseball (which really isn't comparable because of its riches), I'm confident in the belief that every minor league club is evaluated constantly for its ability to sustain itself without large-scale subsidies from its major league owner.

HH

but with no "minor leagues" the big leagues lose that pool of future talent