G7 looking for controlling vote.

[danielray]

2) Go back to G horns. (Please let me elaborate)

-Corps have lost a unique sound when this was implemented. Right now there is NOTHING separating a brass marching band and a drum corps. Try and market that as unique. Also the differences between the haves and have nots have grown to be HUGE esp with brass manufacturers. Old horns weren't the best but they held up better than these new ones. And only the larger corps are getting the benefits from rotating their horns. Deals smaller corps cannot get.

It was painfully hard, back in the day, to get a line of monster players to be able to play in tune on a set of G frankenhorns.

There is absolutely no sense to having younger, less experienced players, go thorough the frustration of playing on inferior horns... and for these corps to have pay a higher price for worse horns with a smaller resale demand.

No thanks.

The greatness of G horns is a myth (says the guy who first performed on a 2 valve King horn.... in G). They were horrible. Really.

[KAW]

This didn't used to be the case where the top DCI corps were "ordained" to win. Possibly it's time for the 7 to go their way and DCI restructure from the ground up. Face it, DCI has been riding on the carcass of drum corps for some time. I personally feel the elimination of the local circuits was the nail in the coffin for corps that wanted to tour locally. Were they all good...no. Generally speaking beginners generally aren't going to be as good as 21 and 22 year old experienced players and guard members. The fact some people won't tolerate a sub G7 show for their precious ears is why these younger kids are deflated. You have always seen THAT parent on the soccer or baseball field or even DCI show that had a smaller corps there performing. But I am digressing.

Here are my thoughts on it.

1) Bring back the local circuits and start doing more parade/shows at festivals.

2) Go back to G horns. (Please let me elaborate)

-Corps have lost a unique sound when this was implemented. Right now there is NOTHING separating a brass marching band and a drum corps. Try and market that as unique. Also the differences between the haves and have nots have grown to be HUGE esp with brass manufacturers. Old horns weren't the best but they held up better than these new ones. And only the larger corps are getting the benefits from rotating their horns. Deals smaller corps cannot get.

3) I also suggest more local youth involvement being that only a certain percentage can be out of that corps operating area. This would also bolster more local involvement. Face it if your corps is from everywhere but where you are...yeah that gonna be good for local parents. This would also put the hammer down on the huge amounts of talent running to the top 3 every year.

4) Lose the electronics.

5) Make the maximum number back to 128 or 135.

6) Limit front side ensemble to a max % of the marching corps.

Anyhow feel free to lambast me as a dino.

Use only land lines and everyone wears corduoroy cutoffs as well.

[Michael Boo]

Business is business.

Businesses need different leadership with different skills at different stages or priorities. It is extremely rare that one individual is the right fit for all stages and priorities. This is why many companies change management at different stages in their growth or in times of crisis.

And how long have both David Gibbs and George Hopkins been leading their corps organizations?

Why are they still there? Well, they're great people and a perfect fit for their corps, having each developed new revenue streams by thinking outside the traditional box.

I can't imagine anyone suggesting to them that their corps or their larger organizations have grown to the point that they should be replaced.

[garfield]

There is no doubt the 7 plus a few other corps are the units at the top of the activity. They are the corps that the majority of people want to see. Of course, many fans enjoy watching 20-30 drum corps in a day, but there is a reason the stadium is fuller at night during a prelims show. The 7 have done things right when it comes to programming, management and forward thinking. They are not perfect, but better than most. It is pretty obvious to me that we are seeing the activity evolve to a point where there will be fewer corps presenting much more complex and entertaining content. I grew up in the activity and have been enjoying drum corps for more than 35 years, yet, I find it difficult to sit through 15-20 drum corps shows. I would prefer 8-10 super corps. I know I am deviating from conventional thinking on this board, but the economics and the market determine who succeeds at this game and I do not see how the picture improves using the current formula. I think it is wise to allow the must successful organizations show us a new path.

But, you see, this argument falls flat when you recognize that these "most successful" corps directors were at the helm of the activity for the last 25 years.

And yet, here we are.

[cowtown]

And how long have both David Gibbs and George Hopkins been leading their corps organizations?

Too long IMO

Each year they take and little raise after all those years, they’ve gotten too expensive, time to move on and get a real jobs

Its an extreme version of Hamlet syndrome

Plus both seem bored, one is so bored that only they and their fans understand their shows and the other just plan out of ideas and keeps coping high school band shows

And now they both might take down several drum corps and deny several educational opportunities to kids, which I thought was the initially the point…which has been lost or maybe they are broken or maybe it was never their point and part of a ruse hiding behind education as a tax dodge, feel good money pull?

Anyone think there would be this problem or split if Gibbs and Hopkins had moved on years ago?

Doubtful

I don’t think the DCI model is broken, I think Gibbs and Hopkins model is broken and won’t work in DCI so perhaps, they need to go

[oldbandguy]

one is so bored that only they and their fans understand their shows

...think you left out some folks that seem to completely understand their shows...

(they wear shirts with the DCI logo on them)

Edited January 11, 2013 by oldbandguy

[TastyWaves]

This didn't used to be the case where the top DCI corps were "ordained" to win. Possibly it's time for the 7 to go their way and DCI restructure from the ground up. Face it, DCI has been riding on the carcass of drum corps for some time. I personally feel the elimination of the local circuits was the nail in the coffin for corps that wanted to tour locally. Were they all good...no. Generally speaking beginners generally aren't going to be as good as 21 and 22 year old experienced players and guard members. The fact some people won't tolerate a sub G7 show for their precious ears is why these younger kids are deflated. You have always seen THAT parent on the soccer or baseball field or even DCI show that had a smaller corps there performing. But I am digressing.

Here are my thoughts on it.

1) Bring back the local circuits and start doing more parade/shows at festivals.

2) Go back to G horns. (Please let me elaborate)

-Corps have lost a unique sound when this was implemented. Right now there is NOTHING separating a brass marching band and a drum corps. Try and market that as unique. Also the differences between the haves and have nots have grown to be HUGE esp with brass manufacturers. Old horns weren't the best but they held up better than these new ones. And only the larger corps are getting the benefits from rotating their horns. Deals smaller corps cannot get.

3) I also suggest more local youth involvement being that only a certain percentage can be out of that corps operating area. This would also bolster more local involvement. Face it if your corps is from everywhere but where you are...yeah that gonna be good for local parents. This would also put the hammer down on the huge amounts of talent running to the top 3 every year.

4) Lose the electronics.

5) Make the maximum number back to 128 or 135.

6) Limit front side ensemble to a max % of the marching corps.

Anyhow feel free to lambast me as a dino.

1) At the end of the day, corps have to get the kids in the Door. Kids are not going to spend their free time doing summer parade corps. Its just not gonna happen.

2) Drum Corps already started getting smaller when there were G-horns. The average citizen cant tell the difference.

3) Would not bolster local involvement. It would be self-limiting. I know even with smaller corps and indoor percussion groups ive taught we had kids from several hundred miles away. In one case when I taught div 3 corps in NJ, we would not have made it on to the field without kids from out of the area.

4) Electronics wont have an impact either way. I am I high school band director and I can tell you for sure that the kids WANT those things. It has to be about what the kids involved in the activity want. Not the people whos time has past. (this includes myself)

5) How does this help anything?

6) Also idiotic. Lets limit the number of trumpet players too. Self-Imposing limits makes no sense whatsoever. Why do we take one group of kids who are out there and who obviously want to be involved and tell them "no"?

I see no need to put the "Hammer" down on any group that has worked hard, and over many years built up their organization to make it a place kids want to go. If I work that hard to build something, I would be very hard pressed to agree with someone who wants to tear it down just to make it "fair". Any of these groups can put in the time and develop their programs. We see new "powerhouses" every few years. Crown wasnt always the machine they are now. They spent their time in the middle or bottom. Now look at them! And they did this without making special rules to limit the "Top" corps over those years.

[BRASSO]

Use only land lines and everyone wears corduoroy cutoffs as well.

Well, if you are honest about it, you couldn't wear " couduoroy cutoffs " on the field in the 60's, 70's and finish in the top 3 in the Troopers ( your corps ), but you can wear " corduoroy cutoffs " on the field now in the Troopers and have them finish out of the top 12 most of the time. Isn't this true ?

As for the " G ", this is just a key. There is no assurance that some manufacturer in the future won;t be able to bridge the gap and figure out how to make new tubing, finger, slides that can't return the sound of the " G ". Things do evolve, and with that instrumentation designs. The notion that the Bb is here to stay forever is folly too.

Edited January 12, 2013 by BRASSO

[BRASSO]

The greatness of G horns is a myth (says the guy who first performed on a 2 valve King horn.... in G). They were horrible. Really.

I believe we should separate out the older instruments that played in the key of " G ", and the key of " G " itself. ( particularly in the higher voices.., ie the soprano voices.). While I agree with you that the instruments that played the " G " in the early years were quite inferior, I do not accept that the SOUND of a brass soprano in the key of " G " is inferior to that of the " Bb ". I prefer the " G " sound in the soprano because it appears much less tiny to my ears. The " G " sound appears fuller, richer, deeper to my ears. I believe that we will find a time in the future that the instrumentation will evolve and the technology arrive that will channge the mechanics to allow the " G " sound to return to the sporano trumpet- bugle morphed stage. That particular instrument will mechanically be different from what was available in the early years of Drum Corps.... and will be far superior as a G keyed soprano voiced instrument than the inferior keyed G brass soprano instruments of 30-40- 50 years ago. But who knows, we'll see.

Edited January 12, 2013 by BRASSO

[Mello Dude]

1) At the end of the day, corps have to get the kids in the Door. Kids are not going to spend their free time doing summer parade corps. Its just not gonna happen.

2) Drum Corps already started getting smaller when there were G-horns. The average citizen cant tell the difference.

3) Would not bolster local involvement. It would be self-limiting. I know even with smaller corps and indoor percussion groups ive taught we had kids from several hundred miles away. In one case when I taught div 3 corps in NJ, we would not have made it on to the field without kids from out of the area.

4) Electronics wont have an impact either way. I am I high school band director and I can tell you for sure that the kids WANT those things. It has to be about what the kids involved in the activity want. Not the people whos time has past. (this includes myself)

5) How does this help anything?

6) Also idiotic. Lets limit the number of trumpet players too. Self-Imposing limits makes no sense whatsoever. Why do we take one group of kids who are out there and who obviously want to be involved and tell them "no"?

I see no need to put the "Hammer" down on any group that has worked hard, and over many years built up their organization to make it a place kids want to go. If I work that hard to build something, I would be very hard pressed to agree with someone who wants to tear it down just to make it "fair". Any of these groups can put in the time and develop their programs. We see new "powerhouses" every few years. Crown wasnt always the machine they are now. They spent their time in the middle or bottom. Now look at them! And they did this without making special rules to limit the "Top" corps over those years.

1) Apparently you didn't read (show) at the end of that first point.

2) You did not even address the point. I'm sorry, but how can you speak for the "average" citizen? I dare you do blind test AND DB meter sometime...you will be amazed. Also being able to market something unique is a point in itself. FYI you would have to be a pretty poor horn player to not be able to compensate for different key horns.

3) Again, just thinking outside the box.

4) Those things cost money. Money is keeping corps from competing on an even playing field. They are also being balanced by non corps members off the field. Weak for a competitive sport to say the least.

5) It is so the spread of members between a 60 person corps and a 128 vs 150. Again, evening the field.

6) Personal attacks mean nothing to debate sir. Limiting the front ensemble would bring down costs AND make the spread less between the haves and the have nots.

No one is tearing down anything. I am simply making some suggestions to get more local involvement. Also, you point to Crown, note when they made the push into DCI and when all these massive changes came into play to favor the bigger corps (try again). Change is NOT a bad word, but when it costs more money and widens the playing field, Houston we have a problem. The G7 see there is an issue but my sig covers this point ever so well here.