Stu Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 What would the criteria be that these guest judges will be evaluating? Same criteria on the sheets? Sure, why not? I mean it is all 'subjective' opinion on what corps is better than anther corps anyway. This type of idea would certainly get us out of the good-ole-boy judging rut Normy was referring to, and it sure would make Finals night retreat way, way, way more exciting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie1223 Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 (edited) Sure, why not? I mean it is all 'subjective' opinion on what corps is better than anther corps anyway. This type of idea would certainly get us out of the good-ole-boy judging rut Normy was referring to, and it sure would make Finals night retreat way, way, way more exciting! So your saying take the Standards set up by the judges and DCI over the years and Completly disreguard them. Ofcourse when you don't have standards the placement for who is "whatever adjective you want to put in" would lead to more volital placements. You could choose "most colorful" or "most entertaining" or "loudest" or "most intellectual". I'm extreme here but I don't think Fans want DCI without judging standards and judges that don't have consistent standards. However the take away is that subjective standards do lead to less volatility. Kind of getting a "Welcome to Who's Line where the games are made up and the points don't matter" vibe here. Without an agreed standard you might aswell not have competition. Edited March 1, 2013 by charlie1223 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 So your saying take the Standards set up by the judges and DCI over the years and Completly disreguard them. Ofcourse when you don't have standards the placement for who is "whatever adjective you want to put in" would lead to more volital placements. You could choose "most colorful" or "most entertaining" or "loudest" or "most intellectual". I'm extreme here but I don't think Fans want DCI without judging standards and judges that don't have consistent standards. However the take away is that subjective standards do lead to less volatility. Kind of getting a "Welcome to Who's Line where the games are made up and the points don't matter" vibe here. Without an agreed standard you might aswell not have competition. NO!!! I am 'not' saying throw out the judging 'criteria' of the matrix written on the sheets and completely disregard them. What I am saying is allow professionals of various musical genres outside of DCI who have never encountered the activity to judge; those professionals who are not philosophically imbedded in the stagnate thought process which has been ingrained into the activity. It would 'not' create chaos! But it certainly would create placement anticipation excitement, especially for the fans, and greatly increase the awareness of the activity to outside resources. Or, are you saying that a Choreographer from Broadway, or a Composer from the Symphonic World, or a Trumpet Pro from the world of Jazz, or a Pro Rock Drummer, (all who never marched but are very proficient professionals) are just not qualified to judge in a 'subjective' drum corps activity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie1223 Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 (edited) NO!!! I am 'not' saying throw out the judging 'criteria' of the matrix written on the sheets and completely disregard them. What I am saying is allow professionals of various musical genres outside of DCI who have never encountered the activity to judge; those professionals who are not philosophically imbedded in the stagnate thought process which has been ingrained into the activity. It would 'not' create chaos! But it certainly would create placement anticipation excitement, especially for the fans, and greatly increase the awareness of the activity to outside resources. Or, are you saying that a Choreographer from Broadway, or a Composer from the Symphonic World, or a Trumpet Pro from the world of Jazz, or a Pro Rock Drummer, (all who never marched but are very proficient professionals) are just not qualified to judge in a 'subjective' drum corps activity? My point still stands. by using different judges who by your words " are not philosophical imbedded in the stagnate thought process which has been ingrained into the activity" you are changing the standard. You call it a "stagnate thought process" but in reality you are referring to the standard agreed upon by the corps and judges. And what I'm saying is that changing the standard or eliminating a standard DOES change the placements without a doubt. If the sheet just said "who is your favorite?" And who ever had the most votes wins then that would change the standard and it would lead to a different outcome compared ONLY to the previous Standard which would be the current DCI sheets and judges. However, think about what you're saying... Should a Pro Rock drummer really judge percussion? Well the current standard for judging percussion is that you at least be well versed in a number of percussion fields (battery, classical, percussion ensemble) etc. You need to have an understanding of what great playing is and how to improve poor playing. Is a random rock drummer familiar with this standard? No. He is not familiar with this standard and you see that is GREAT thing. Except what is his standard? How groovy it is? how loud it is? How entertaining it is? Are these "wrong" ways to judge... not really they are perfectly valid but doesn't the current DCI standard hold some integrity and worth when we judge things in a way that NO OTHER random person can judge? Does the world objectively think Picaso is a great artist? Or do we know he is a great artist because professional collectors and art critiques bid highest on his art and they say that he an artist worth knowing about and owning a painting from? That he is the artist that "smarter people" say must be taught in elementary school because objectively he is seen as a master. Without those people who claim to understand art more than others then really no one would appreciate art... If all art is subjectively great then really nothing is great. (similar to the idea that if we are all special then no one is special, or happiness only has significance if we can also have saddness) An objective appreciation for certain elements of art leads to a subjective appreciation of art by others who wouldn't bother to look at art objectively as "good", "bad", "famous" or "important". This is the creation and purposes of standards so that put world has relative meaning to us. The objectivity in art comes from the creations of standards by people who claim to know the most about it. And think about the kind of standards we want to judge drum corps on and the kind of subjectivity that's possible with other standards. By focusing on the criteria which is for a lack of better word "esoteric" you preserve actually a higher degree of objectivity and some would say that is more fair for all groups. An example being instead of saying "Does it sounds good?" you ask "Are the member of the ensemble performing uniformly?" etc. etc. Also, I should point out that no matter the subjective standard agreed upon by everyone there will always be this concentration of winners at the top in the LONG RUN. even if we judge PURELY on entertainment and the question "What corps was most entertaining" was the ONLY category on the sheet we would still see 5 - 7 corps consistently being the most entertaining year in and year out and eventually I think we'll be in the same position now. In the short run a change in the standards leads to high volatility. In the long run (no matter the standard) it will eventually decrease in volatility as long as the standard does not change. If you don't believe me... who has won the Fan Favorite award for the last 3 years since they started giving that award? Carolina Crown... Edited March 2, 2013 by charlie1223 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 (edited) Does the world objectively think Picaso is a great artist? Yes they do. Why ? Because they tend to defer judgement on this " greatness " to others more qualified to make these types of judgements. Now... having said that, do most people like Picasso's art ? Some do, many don't. For example, do I believe that Picasso is a " great artist " ? Yes. Do I enjoy his artwork ? No, not particularly. I much prefer the artwork of much lesser known artists as a matter of fact. History has shown us that some artists, not particularly exalted by even ( your words ) the " smarter people " of their time, years later, after their death received their proper place in the " greatness " category by later art historians. I personally consider Norman Rockwell to be on the same level of " artist " greatness as that of Picasso or Dali. In college, most " smarter people " at the time in the college art departments looked down upon the art work of Norman Rockwell as an " illustrator " and really were dismissive of his work compared to the " Great Masters " over the Centuries that they admired. Curiously, Norman Rockwell is increasingly beginning within academia to have more of them come around and to appreciate his story telling and his gifted artwork " greatness "... that many of the " less smarter " people, the hoi poloi if you will, recognized in his artwork greatness now for decades. Rockwell did not do his artwork for the folks in academia, or " the smarter people " even though he was classically trained in Europe in Art and had a very high IQ himself. He aspired however to provide " great " artwork to the masses for their enjoyment. He never much cared what " the smarter people " in Academia thought of his artwork at the time. The Art world of the 40's and 50's did not particularly like his " Art " as it was not " high Art " to them. But he could have cared less, as his later memoirs after his death tell us. But he kept on, keeping on. And lo and behold, even those in Academia and the Art World are now revisiting his body of artwork and are now coming around to a much deeper appreciation for his art " greatness " in what he set out to do with his artwork back in the 40's and 50's.... and accomplished in that quest. Its the same way in many respects to DCI. Do I recognize the " greatness " of the Blue Devils talent on display ? Yes. Do I enjoy their performances ? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I defer to the DCI judges to determine for themselves what is " great ". This is in their domain. I can't, nor won't go there with such things. But I reserve for myself what "I like". That is in my domain. The DCI judges can't go there on that with me. I'm not alone in this sentiment it appears to me either. Rarely is the DCI Champion in any given year that is determined to be the " greatest " by a handful of DCI judges that year likewise the fan favorite show for that year. It happens, but is the exception rather than the rule. Edited March 2, 2013 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie1223 Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 I didn't argue that the world doesn't objectively think Picasso is a great artist. And it seems you've agreed with most of my points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 (edited) My point still stands. by using different judges who by your words " are not philosophical imbedded in the stagnate thought process which has been ingrained into the activity" you are changing the standard. You call it a "stagnate thought process" but in reality you are referring to the standard agreed upon by the corps and judges. So, you want the inbred to stay inbred and do not want to expand the gene pool outside of the inbred. Alright, I got that point from your analysis. And what I'm saying is that changing the standard or eliminating a standard DOES change the placements without a doubt. If the sheet just said "who is your favorite?" And who ever had the most votes wins then that would change the standard and it would lead to a different outcome compared ONLY to the previous Standard which would be the current DCI sheets and judges. Yes, I am saying that different opinions of the way the sheets are interpreted from various 'professionals, outside of DCI would change up placements; and I am also saying so what to that!!! And by the way, I never said there should be a caption of "My Favorite" or that "The Most Votes Win". However, think about what you're saying... Should a Pro Rock drummer really judge percussion? Well the current standard for judging percussion is that you at least be well versed in a number of percussion fields (battery, classical, percussion ensemble) etc. You need to have an understanding of what great playing is and how to improve poor playing. Is a random rock drummer familiar with this standard? No. He is not familiar with this standard and you see that is GREAT thing. Except what is his standard? How groovy it is? how loud it is? How entertaining it is? Are these "wrong" ways to judge... not really they are perfectly valid but doesn't the current DCI standard hold some integrity and worth when we judge things in a way that NO OTHER random person can judge? I never said a Random Rock Drummer. I am referring to Rock Drummers like Steve Smith or Kenny Arnoff; they would do very well as DCI judges thank you! Does the world objectively think Picaso is a great artist? Or do we know he is a great artist because professional collectors and art critiques bid highest on his art and they say that he an artist worth knowing about and owning a painting from? That he is the artist that "smarter people" say must be taught in elementary school because objectively he is seen as a master. Without those people who claim to understand art more than others then really no one would appreciate art... If all art is subjectively great then really nothing is great. (similar to the idea that if we are all special then no one is special, or happiness only has significance if we can also have saddness) An objective appreciation for certain elements of art leads to a subjective appreciation of art by others who wouldn't bother to look at art objectively as "good", "bad", "famous" or "important". This is the creation and purposes of standards so that put world has relative meaning to us. The objectivity in art comes from the creations of standards by people who claim to know the most about it. The whole entire world of art is completely subjective illusion; there is nothing objective about art at all; it is only good or bad because of someone's opinion. One can objectively determine if two played notes are in tune with an oscilloscope, or if two played rhythms are in time with a metronome, but that is 'technique' not 'art'. Art is beauty, happiness, sadness, emotion. love, hate, good, bad, all the things which are not quantitative in an objective manner. And think about the kind of standards we want to judge drum corps on and the kind of subjectivity that's possible with other standards. By focusing on the criteria which is for a lack of better word "esoteric" you preserve actually a higher degree of objectivity and some would say that is more fair for all groups. An example being instead of saying "Does it sounds good?" you ask "Are the member of the ensemble performing uniformly?" etc. etc. So, let qualified and learned educators brought up in the world of DCI judge Technique, and let qualified performing artists outside of DCI judge General Effect; I will go for that! Also, I should point out that no matter the subjective standard agreed upon by everyone there will always be this concentration of winners at the top in the LONG RUN. even if we judge PURELY on entertainment and the question "What corps was most entertaining" was the ONLY category on the sheet we would still see 5 - 7 corps consistently being the most entertaining year in and year out and eventually I think we'll be in the same position now. In the short run a change in the standards leads to high volatility. In the long run (no matter the standard) it will eventually decrease in volatility as long as the standard does not change. If you don't believe me... who has won the Fan Favorite award for the last 3 years since they started giving that award? Carolina Crown... There are many thousands of professional musicians, educators, performers, choreographers, etc who are very qualified to judge technique and general effect; rotate a few hundred of them in and out of DCI over a period of seasons. That will eliminate stagnated group think, eliminate placement stagnation, and will certainly increase fan anticipation enjoyment! Edited March 2, 2013 by Stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 (edited) Should a Pro Rock drummer really judge percussion? Well the current standard for judging percussion is that you at least be well versed in a number of percussion fields (battery, classical, percussion ensemble) etc. You need to have an understanding of what great playing is and how to improve poor playing. Is a random rock drummer familiar with this standard? Probably not. But then again the rock band percussionist is probably no less qualified to judge rock guitar playing in a DCI competition than a public school music teacher that goes out as a DCI judge in the summer and judges the rock guitar playing from a DCI Corps in competition. Would you agree with this as well ? The Cadets a few years back had a lead soloist prominently out front at a central part of the show that sang a song. What " voice training " do most DCI judges have in their training and experience ( in voice ) that could allow them the professional expertise to assist that singer soloist with feedback, let alone judge them in performance ? Edited March 2, 2013 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 Sure, why not? I mean it is all 'subjective' opinion on what corps is better than anther corps anyway. This type of idea would certainly get us out of the good-ole-boy judging rut Normy was referring to, and it sure would make Finals night retreat way, way, way more exciting! I want the corps performance levels to create the excitement, not the "loose cannon" judging by people who have no idea what they are doing. Drum corps instructors are not always capable of ranking and rating the corps, and some of them have been around DCI for decades. Why ever do you think that merely handing the sheets to people with zero background and training would end up with accurate evaluations...and accurate ranking and rating. It would be exciting like watching a train wreck is exciting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 http://www.fina.org/...ina/synchro.pdf Synchronized swimming has many divisions but but you can still consistent teams (and team members) at the top. But since 1998 Russia has won the "Team Division". How about WGI? Are we allowed to say that DCI and WGI are "similar"? Percussion Independent Open has had 6 champions since they started in 1994. Only 3 of them have won more than 2. Riverside and Blue Knights are tied with 4 and Music City Mystique has 7. I think you mean World. Open's a little more diverse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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