Have DCI Standings Actually Stagnated?

[Cleveland1]

there are 19 pages so im not going to read them all. so if i repeat a point already made,oh well.

DCI is more similar to MLB than it is of the NFL or NBA. The teams that can spend the most, win the most. The teams that either don't or cannot spend, lose. Its that way with DCI. Keep in mind that DCI has been around for 40 years and major league baseball figures for teams are well over 100 years old at this point, so a direct comparison would be poor to make.

Lets start baseball at 1903, when the World Series first started, to give us an even footing.

over the 110 years the yankees have won 27 of the world series championships.

and in 41 seasons the Blue Devils have won 15 championships.

in baseball the Cardinals have won 11 championships.

The Cadets have won 10.

Oakland Athletics (and the teams who preceded them but the A's carry their history) have 9

Cavies have 7

Giants and Redsox both have 7

Vanguard has 6

You get a lot of teams with 3-6 championships.

DCI has Phantom and Madison with 2

Baseball has several teams with 1 or 2 wins'

DCI has the Kingsmen and Star with 1.

All of these teams have no world series championships: Washington Nationals, Seattle Mariners, Milwaukee Brewers, Houston Astros, Colorado Rockies, Tampa Bay Rays, Texas Rangers, San Diego Padres.

DCI has a slew of corps that have never won a championship, at least not division 1 or world class, which i assume is what we are focusing on.

Its not a carbon copy, obviouslly. But there are the anual favorites to do well in each division in baseball, and there are the same in DCI.

The teams who spend, win. and if they dont win it all, they usually get close. Unfortunately this means that teams like the Kansas City Royals will likely stay bad. Even with a draft in place, the talent doesn't develop like it does in the NFL or NBA.

But its still wrong to compare the two sports. for DCI you don't sign contracts (yet....) you have an age limit, you pay to play (usually), and are very limited to the talent around you and if they want to audition for you. You don't grab a player out of a draft. If you live in wisconsin area and want to play for the cavies instead of madison or blue stars...you can because they are closer to them then say.... BD. People aren't limited to their immediate surroundings, and if they don't like a corps they do not have to still try out for them.

baseball, if you get drafted then thats what system you are playing for, essentially. You don't get to choose to go to NY to win a championship or to Tampa Bay to be by your friends. You are going to play for the nationals and you are going to like it because that is where you are going.

But have the standings stagnated? compared to what? Crown shot up to the top really quickly. but we still have the same top corps that we have had since the 80s, more or less. BD, SCV, Cadets. Cavies really rocked it in the 90s and early 2000s. We have tiers of corps, and within those tiers things can change, and every once in a while a corps jumps into another tier, or falls. SCV most feel is poised to be a top 3 corps consistently for a while because...they spent the money on better staff. BD is always top. Crown has been top recently. Bluecoats have been in the next tier consistently, Cavies took a dive last year but are still in the second tier. etc.

If you are looking at the bottom of the finalist standings, though, things are constantly changing. Madison Scouts had their really bad year and jumped back into the top 12. Blue Knights are hovering in there. Spirit, in my opinion, came out of nowhere a couple years ago. Crossmen came back to finals. Blue stars were top 7 a couple years ago but fell out. Troopers Colts and Academy keep going at it around 12. Its really exciting right there in that 10-15ish area.

[N.E. Brigand]

There are 19 pages, so I'm not going to read them all. So if I repeat a point already made, oh well.

[...]

But have the standings stagnated? Compared to what?

Compared to DCI's earlier years. That's why I used the word "stagnated": more movement before, less movement now. And you don't have to read the whole thread to get some facts on which to make a judgment in that regard. See just the first post, and then this one, this one, and this one. Lots of stats and one graph. (Apologies if you have looked over those figures.)

Thanks for the Major League Baseball figures, which, as you indicate, may or may not be a helpful comparison. Still, as per the statistics you provide:

--the Yankees have won 24% of the MLB championships; the Blue Devils have won 36% of the DCI championships.

--the top 5 teams have won 55% of the MLB championships; the top 4 corps have won 92% of the DCI championships.

[BRASSO]

Good analysis on the stats and data between DCI placemernts and MLB placements.

Here is some additional food for thought:

There are 30 teams in Major League Baseball. Since 2001, 14 of these teams have made it to the World Series in this time frame ( about half of them )........ where 1 team finished in first place and the other team in 2nd place when it was all said and done.

There are 23 " teams " ( Corps ) in DCI World Class Division. But we do allow open class to compete for the title too now, so there really about 30 " teams " on average as well. Out of these 23-30 teams, 5 " teams " ( Corps ) have made it to the 1st or 2nd place in DCI since 2001. MLB has had approx. 3 times as many teams make it to 1st or 2nd place since 2001 compared with DCI. ( 14 compared to 5 )

I would be thrilled to see DCI get even remotely close to the similar movement that Major League baseball has had at the very top over the last decade. Who wouldn't ? Its what drives the interest level, imo.

Edited March 1, 2013 by BRASSO

[charlie1223]

Compared to DCI's earlier years. That's why I used the word "stagnated": more movement before, less movement now. And you don't have to read the whole thread to get some facts on which to make a judgment in that regard. See just the first post, and then this one, this one, and this one. Lots of stats and one graph. (Apologies if you have looked over those figures.)

Thanks for the Major League Baseball figures, which, as you indicate, may or may not be a helpful comparison. Still, as per the statistics you provide:

--the Yankees have won 24% of the MLB championships; the Blue Devils have won 36% of the DCI championships.

--the top 5 teams have won 55% of the MLB championships; the top 4 corps have won 92% of the DCI championships.

Don't you think that sports that rely on an objective score system will naturally have a more diverse pool of winners?

If you drop a fly ball you miss the out and could lose the game. If you a drop a rifle... well maybe the judge doesn't catch it, or he likes the recovery, or maybe the dancer did it on purpose but it was not performed like it, or maybe he sees and that's all he/she focuses on.

Sports that are judged in a somewhat more subjective way like Figure Skating often see periods of 4 - 6 years of the same person/pair at the top. The only reason it changes you can say is because people retire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Figure_Skating_Championships

Just take a look at yourself and see long periods of time where the winner was all but guaranteed for many many years! One person has won Ladies for 10 years in a row in the 20's/30's!

Edited March 1, 2013 by charlie1223

[N.E. Brigand]

Don't you think that sports that rely on an objective score system will naturally have a more diverse pool of winners?

If you drop a fly ball you miss the out and could lose the game. If you a drop a rifle... well maybe the judge doesn't catch it, or he likes the recovery, or maybe the dancer did it on purpose but it was not performed like it, or maybe he sees and that's all he/she focuses on.

Sports that are judged in a somewhat more subjective way like Figure Skating often see periods of 4 - 6 years of the same person/pair at the top. The only reason it changes you can say is because people retire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Figure_Skating_Championships

Just take a look at yourself and see long periods of time where the winner was all but guaranteed for many many years! One person has won Ladies for 10 years in a row in the 20's/30's!

All good points. On the other hand, figure skating could also be too stagnant! And DCI does show a trend of decreasing volatility through the years, so it obviously doesn't have to be the way it is now.

[Big Bad Bari]

yet the last regional circuit was killed off.......in a move led by the World Class corps.

funny how that happened

Please elaborate as to the exact WC move...

[charlie1223]

All good points. On the other hand, figure skating could also be too stagnant! And DCI does show a trend of decreasing volatility through the years, so it obviously doesn't have to be the way it is now.

Maybe volatility is actually uncharacteristic of judged performances and art if you consider the standards set for what is "perfect" is predetermined by the standards of past winners and past judging experiences. The beginning of DCI could be said to have more volatility because it lacked this. (after all DCI was new and so were the judging standards)

The judges, by the very nature of being experienced and wanting to be as objective as possible to all the corps, have some agreement on how to judge the criteria on the sheets. More importantly they agree that the way they judged last years season is how they should judge this years season. It's part of being objective. (given that the sheet changes didn't really change the perspective through which the judge sees the show)

The lack of volatility comes from the judges having a clearer idea about what wins year after year and wanting to validate that their choices every year are as objective as possible. They understand that the winner they selected last year has to be at-least as good or comparable to the winner this year. This idea gives a certain legitimacy to the criteria being judged and how the judges interpret that criteria (They don't want to be wrong or seen as subjective). If there wasn't this development of a standard then it's likely that a judge who is inconsistent in is subjective perception of shows could severely corrupt the integrity of the judging establishment.

So there is an incentive to not refine judging procedures but to reinforce them. And it is not just for the sake of the integrity of DCI and the judges but also for the sake of the competing corps. They don't want to have to guess what the judges look for in championship shows and they want to be able to design shows with a consistent judging system so that it can be within a ball park chance of winning (let's not let this point devolve in to designing for the judges vs. designing for the fans please).

So, you have the desire for a consistent and objective judging system/style by all parties (Fans, Corps, DCI, Judges)but then you have corps that, just by the nature of them winning, shape that system/style. Now, I am not saying that corps like BD effect the sheets or that Judges want a "Blue Devil" show to always win... But it's fair to say that the objective parts of Blue Devil shows ( or winner's shows) get reinforced as qualities expected in a champion. How PERFECT can straight lines be? How GREAT can a corps sound? How IMPACTFUL can audio and visual coordination be? So, just by the nature of wanting this kind of fair system it automatically makes it more likely that corps that have won will continue to win.

If the judging community agrees that Crown is the "best" one year (they happen to break into the top) then it's expected that Crown has what it takes to win again, after all, the judging community attempts to be as consistent as possible in their standards and Crown had proven that it is capable of meeting that standard. The system does require that corps be "undeniable" to win top honors if they previously haven't (in the judges eyes) however there is really no way to avoid this if you want people to at least have some respect for a subjective judging system year in, year out.

Edited March 1, 2013 by charlie1223

[N.E. Brigand]

Maybe volatility is actually uncharacteristic of judged performances and art if you consider the standards set for what is "perfect" is predetermined by the standards of past winners and past judging experiences. The beginning of DCI could be said to have more volatility because it lacked this. (after all DCI was new and so were the judging standards)[...]

Some more fascinating ideas. This feels like a different way of describing Bruckner8's "competitive inertia". Sorry I can't respond at more length, but I have to duck out to prepare for a weekend as a Michael Boo groupie.

[Jeff Ream]

Compared to DCI's earlier years. That's why I used the word "stagnated": more movement before, less movement now. And you don't have to read the whole thread to get some facts on which to make a judgment in that regard. See just the first post, and then this one, this one, and this one. Lots of stats and one graph. (Apologies if you have looked over those figures.)

Thanks for the Major League Baseball figures, which, as you indicate, may or may not be a helpful comparison. Still, as per the statistics you provide:

--the Yankees have won 24% of the MLB championships; the Blue Devils have won 36% of the DCI championships.

--the top 5 teams have won 55% of the MLB championships; the top 4 corps have won 92% of the DCI championships.

and back when the Yankees racked up a whole slew of those titles, there were what...10 teams in the AL? No divisions until 1969?

so you really can't compare MLB.

[Jeff Ream]

Please elaborate as to the exact WC move...

when all of the World Class corps in DCM except Pioneer basically told DCM they were leaving because they wanted more money