THE HAWTHORNE MUCHACHOS: WHAT REALLY HAPPENED

[scottgordon]

wait...people committed suicide over this????? :blink:/>/>

In the 1990s I played a series of gigs with one of the 1975 Muchacho tymps. He said that when the staff informed them of the DQ, it was a huge shock to the members, who had been told all along not to worry about anything. Yeah, they had overage members (a LOT of them, he said), but they had just been told all along that all the other corps were doing it too. The staff sat them down and everyone was crying. He said that after the DQ, some of the members (he included) were sort of "lost" for a few years. And yes, he said in the worst case(s?) it led to downward spiral and suicide.

He never told me about the murder. To quote another poster - golly. I wonder if he even knew.

After 1976, he could never listen to an audio recording of the Muchachos. I gave him a copy of Ken Kobold's recordings from 1972-75, and being that 20 years had passed he was finally able to sit down and listen. He listened to it over and over for days, driving his family crazy. Yeah, he said they were really cocky and "old school". He said 800 people showed up for first camp and so they had talent up the wazoo. Yeah that's not uncommon today, but back then it was unusual.

Edited February 18, 2013 by scottgordon

[84BDsop]

The fact that the Muchachos apparently were shown to be complicit in the illegality, while ( as far as we know )the SCV staff was unaware that 2 of their marching members were illegal and marched DCI illegally would not matter if this was the NCAA ...and most other youth copmpetitive organizations for that matter. There is the timely saying that " ignorance before the laws, rules and the circumstances is no excuse ". So while we naturally sympathize with the fact that SCV staff apparently were unaware that they were breaking the rules in 1989, the NCAA would have stripped them of ALL their scores, placements in 1989. Thats because knowingly or unknowingly, they utlized ineligible marchers throughout 98% of the 1989 season and heading into the Championships week they received the advantaged seeding that it is speculative at best they would have received had they not marched the two illegal marchers all season long. The NCAA certainly does not care if a Coach knows or does not know his players are illegal as to what penalties it imposes on THE TEAM. The penalty is forfeiture of ALL competitive scores, placements, wins, etc in both circumstances for the team, so to them, it is irrelevent as to whether or not those in charge knew of the breaking of the rules or not. Just sayin'

Fine....but you ARE aware that the NCAA and DCI are 2 completely DIFFERENT organizations, governing different activities, with different people, and thus with different rules.....right??

The NCAA argument is weak, since they govern collegiate sport and DCI governs Jr drum corps.

Not even apples and oranges....more like apples and pharma.

The FACTS re 89 SCV are that the 2 overage guys faked their papers so well they not only fooled SCV, they fooled those government agencies whose JOB it is to look for that kind of thing.

When they were discovered, they were booted immediately. What more do you want?

[BRASSO]

What does the NCAA have to do with DCI?

Anyways, seems to me that it's a good thing that DCI differs from the NCAA on this. The NCAA's broken compliance system is riddled with corruption, favoritism, arbitrary enforcement of rules, so on and so forth. DCI isn't perfect today and I'm sure it was far, far from perfect in the fourth year of its existence but it's a sight better than the NCAA in this regard.

Ok, accepting your premise, lets utilize Little Baseball then as an example.

If a team was determined to be utilizing ineligible players Little League Baseball would make that team forfeit ALL that's seasons games too. They likewise would not care if it was brought to their late season attention that the coaches were apparently unaware of the use of ineligible players. It would only matter in the level of sanctions it might impose, or not impose, on the Coaches. But nevertheless, THE TEAM would be made to forfeit ALL their games, even if the ineligible players sat on the bench in uniform and they never played a single game all season. So in this case, the SCV would have been made to have forfeited the entire 1989 season's scores and placements as they broke the rules by utilizing ineligible players, albeit apparently unknowingly. My sense is that just about every other competitive youth endeavor out there would likewise vacate that team's entire season too, for the use of ineligible players in competition.

Edited February 18, 2013 by BRASSO

[Jeff Ream]

You got this from Corpsrep. They've been wrong so many times on Corps, scores, dates, stuff, we can't count them all.

Source for 1974 Prelims and Finals of World Open both in Lynn as well this year too ( although, they've made mistakes too on occasion.. just less than Corpsreps, just sayin'

http://www.fromthepr...easonscores.htm

history of drum corps has Everrett too.

I mean, can't be that many people wrong could it?

[BRASSO]

When they were discovered, they were booted immediately. What more do you want?

I don't want anything.

I will point out that in 1989 SCV placed first place in every show but one ( BD's show early in the season in Concord ) We all agree that finishing first in shows gives the corps more money than finishing 2nd or third. We can all agree also it seems to me that SCV in 1989 utilized at least 2 overage marchers for 28 of their first place wins. We can agree that we really don't know if they'd have won all that money for 1st place in all these 28 shows if it was known that they were breaking the rules by utilizing ineligible marchers in those 28 first place revenue producing wins. We don't know if they'd have won first place anyway. They just MIGHT have. But at the very least its really unclear either way. And its not really fair to the other Corps that year that they finished in all those shows behind a Corps that knowingly or unknowingly was breaking the rules by its use of ineligible overage marchers. We can all agree that DCI never really investigated the overage marchers that SCV utilized in 1989, relying on their word that there were only two and allowing them to self police themselves and accepted their word that they had no others that may have also marched but were likewise able to hoodwink Royer and the others in leadership there. My point is that no other youth competitive activity would have allowed a team to utilize ineligible players for 98% of the season without making that team forfeit the entire season of games, thats all. If DCI has a separate set of procedures and sanctions ( in this case, no sanctions ) on these types of things, it doesn't bother me. I'm just pointing out what just about every other youth competitive activity does in these situations.

Edited February 18, 2013 by BRASSO

[Jeff Ream]

This is certainly debatable it would seem to me. I don't ever recall in the past a series of scheming secret meetings behind closed doors by a few that plotted against their fellow collegues, then used attempted extortion and threats upon the others in a quest to pretty much take over the operation of DCI. That was pretty disgusting, " shady " and totally unprecedented if you ask me. It wasn't even done in an open and collegial manner. Far from it as a matter of fact.

I can't imagine, by 1989, the other directors not raising hell if they thought SCV should be gone for the fact that people from outside the US forged papers.

And since little to no stink, rumor, speculation, Zapruder film etc had been talked about on that one Mr Ethics Police, I'm pretty sure it's all good. After all, David St Angel was not shy about letting people know how he felt...look at the 92 video

[Michael Boo]

history of drum corps has Everrett too.

I mean, can't be that many people wrong could it?

Oh, so now you're part of the conspiracy as well? (I bet those liner notes mentioned earlier were faked in a CIA lab.)

[Michael Boo]

Fine....but you ARE aware that the NCAA and DCI are 2 completely DIFFERENT organizations, governing different activities, with different people, and thus with different rules.....right??

The NCAA argument is weak, since they govern collegiate sport and DCI governs Jr drum corps.

Not even apples and oranges....more like apples and pharma.

The FACTS re 89 SCV are that the 2 overage guys faked their papers so well they not only fooled SCV, they fooled those government agencies whose JOB it is to look for that kind of thing.

When they were discovered, they were booted immediately. What more do you want?

I'd be satisfied with this.

[Michael Boo]

I can't imagine, by 1989, the other directors not raising hell if they thought SCV should be gone for the fact that people from outside the US forged papers.

And since little to no stink, rumor, speculation, Zapruder film etc had been talked about on that one Mr Ethics Police, I'm pretty sure it's all good. After all, David St Angel was not shy about letting people know how he felt...look at the 92 video

I spoke with David about that. He was as classy guy and he knew SCV was not culpable. He saw no reason to try to hurt the corps for competitive gain.

To repeat...David St. Angel was a classy guy. (He never expected his honest reaction in the 1992 video to be seen on camera.)

[Rifuarian]

Ok, accepting your premise, lets utilize Little Baseball then as an example.

If a team was determined to be utilizing ineligible players Little League Baseball would make that team forfeit ALL that's seasons games too. They likewise would not care if it was brought to their late season attention that the coaches were apparently unaware of the use of ineligible players. It would only matter in the level of sanctions it might impose, or not impose, on the Coaches. But nevertheless, THE TEAM would be made to forfeit ALL their games, even if the ineligible players sat on the bench in uniform and they never played a single game all season. So in this case, the SCV would have been made to have forfeited the entire 1989 season's scores and placements as they broke the rules by utilizing ineligible players, albeit apparently unknowingly. My sense is that just about every other competitive youth endeavor out there would likewise vacate that team's entire season too, for the use of ineligible players in competition.

Then it's very lucky for Vanguard that they weren't playing little league baseball back in '89.