A Hunch; A Question

[Kamarag]

So based on the unanimity of these responses, are we to conclude that the G7 were wrong in their assertion that changes to the event format (pre-show I&E performers, instant encores, NASCAR interaction area, etc.) matter?

You would indeed be wrong to come to such a conclusion, considering it's a completely separate issue.

Most fans don't know about that stuff, but would certainly enjoy it were it available. There's no reason that stuff can't happen at any show, DCI, MM, TOC, DCA, whatever. Show sponsors should work hard to ensure they provide the most bang for the buck, especially given the inevitable rise in ticket prices, and the corps should endeavor to assist the show sponsors any way they can.

[cixelsyd]

You would indeed be wrong to come to such a conclusion, considering it's a completely separate issue.

How is that a separate issue? This thread is about whether fans would pick MiM shows over DCI, and those are the differences in the fan experience between those two types of shows.

Most fans don't know about that stuff, but would certainly enjoy it were it available. There's no reason that stuff can't happen at any show, DCI, MM, TOC, DCA, whatever. Show sponsors should work hard to ensure they provide the most bang for the buck, especially given the inevitable rise in ticket prices, and the corps should endeavor to assist the show sponsors any way they can.

It sounds like the fans who do know about it are telling us it does not matter.

[mobrien]

How is that a separate issue? This thread is about whether fans would pick MiM shows over DCI, and those are the differences in the fan experience between those two types of shows.

And it sounds like the overwhelming opinion is that no, regular fans wouldn't care. They want to see the corps they want to see, and if they can see that group together in one setting, they'll go, regardless of whether the corps themselves are producing the show or whether DCI is collecting the gate.

One of these days it would be an interesting experiment for DCI to try operating a season in which rather than the package pricing they have now, they instead instituted a minimum performance fee (of let's say, $1,400) per corps, but then allowed the individual show sponsors to negotiate with the specific corps they wanted. Were that to happen, it would start letting the market work in a way that the current system doesn't, and give the individual corps directors an incentive to make their corps as desirable as possible for the TEP presenters. Being a past title winner wouldn't necessarily be as important a draw as being entertaining, so a corps that might not be a Top 5 or 6, but had a unique draw, would still have an opportunity to capitalize on their skill at creating programs and an identity that people liked.

Were that to happen, all the G7 discussion would go by the wayside, since each corps would be given a chance to realize their real market value (and as a side benefit, you wouldn't have to have sheets to try and encourage corps to be "more entertaining" - the paycheck at the end of the night would be the real motivator, whatever the judges have to say).

Waiting to hear the first response from someone who will say that such an idea would only further empower the top corps - which would only underscore THEIR point in terms of their market value relative to the field. :tongue:/>/>

Edited February 19, 2013 by mobrien

[Kamarag]

How is that a separate issue? This thread is about whether fans would pick MiM shows over DCI, and those are the differences in the fan experience between those two types of shows.

It sounds like the fans who do know about it are telling us it does not matter.

1) The original question dealt with show sponsors. Most fans simply do not care who sponsors a show (save the hard-headed few that won't ever got to, say, a YEA sponsored show). Most drum corps fans that haven't been to a TOC show don't know there's added-value content, so it really isn't likely to be a factor in attendance one way or the other, at least not yet. I do suspect that fans who've experienced that added-value stuff enjoy it and would welcome it at all shows. I know I would.

2) Most fans do not read or post on DCP, so we are really only speculating on what they do and don't want/like/do. It's a fairly safe speculation, though, as I've noted above.

The question we should be asking is whether "most fans" would attend a G7/TOC/MM/whatever show vs a non-those guys show at a nearby venue on the same night.

Let's posit the following scenario:

Show A: A TOC show, featuring the 7 TOC corps

Show B: A DCI show, featuring 7 non-TOC corps

The shows are within a reasonable driving distance on the same night, with similar ticket prices. I know which show I'll attend, and I suspect I know which will draw the bigger crowd.

Edited February 19, 2013 by Kamarag

[cixelsyd]

One of these days it would be an interesting experiment for DCI to try operating a season in which rather than the package pricing they have now, they instead instituted a minimum performance fee (of let's say, $1,400) per corps, but then allowed the individual show sponsors to negotiate with the specific corps they wanted. Were that to happen, it would start letting the market work in a way that the current system doesn't, and give the individual corps directors an incentive to make their corps as desirable as possible for the TEP presenters. Being a past title winner wouldn't necessarily be as important a draw as being entertaining, so a corps that might not be a Top 5 or 6, but had a unique draw, would still have an opportunity to capitalize on their skill at creating programs and an identity that people liked.

Were that to happen, all the G7 discussion would go by the wayside, since each corps would be given a chance to realize their real market value (and as a side benefit, you wouldn't have to have sheets to try and encourage corps to be "more entertaining" - the paycheck at the end of the night would be the real motivator, whatever the judges have to say).

They can realize their "real market value" anytime they want by going out in the real market, instead of just being shelf items at the market created by a DCI event.

Waiting to hear the first response from someone who will say that such an idea would only further empower the top corps - which would only underscore THEIR point in terms of their market value relative to the field. :tongue:/>/>/>

Nothing that happens at a DCI event would prove your speculation about open market value. But your idea might be interesting if the judges were to learn from it.

[garfield]

1) The original question dealt with show sponsors. Most fans simply do not care who sponsors a show (save the hard-headed few that won't ever got to, say, a YEA sponsored show). Most drum corps fans that haven't been to a TOC show don't know there's added-value content, so it really isn't likely to be a factor in attendance one way or the other, at least not yet. I do suspect that fans who've experienced that added-value stuff enjoy it and would welcome it at all shows. I know I would.

2) Most fans do not read or post on DCP, so we are really only speculating on what they do and don't want/like/do. It's a fairly safe speculation, though, as I've noted above.

The question we should be asking is whether "most fans" would attend a G7/TOC/MM/whatever show vs a non-those guys show at a nearby venue on the same night.

Let's posit the following scenario:

Show A: A TOC show, featuring the 7 TOC corps

Show B: A DCI show, featuring 7 non-TOC corps

The shows are within a reasonable driving distance on the same night, with similar ticket prices. I know which show I'll attend, and I suspect I know which will draw the bigger crowd.

Should the MiM group (should there be one) go so far as to schedule a show in direct competition with DCI for BITS, I'd not hesitate to stand on the hill and shout the details of just, exactly, what the G7 attempted and wishes to happen to the activity's participating units and it's governing body.

I suspect that, as was the original intent of the OP's post, should the greater fandom become familiar with the G7's antics, they might just choose the DCI show over the TOC show. I also recognize that possibly many (most?) would not hear me scream, or even care if they do hear me, and still choose the G7 show.

[cixelsyd]

The question we should be asking is whether "most fans" would attend a G7/TOC/MM/whatever show vs a non-those guys show at a nearby venue on the same night.

Let's posit the following scenario:

Show A: A TOC show, featuring the 7 TOC corps

Show B: A DCI show, featuring 7 non-TOC corps

The shows are within a reasonable driving distance on the same night, with similar ticket prices. I know which show I'll attend, and I suspect I know which will draw the bigger crowd.

We have had that thread already, several times over. Did you miss them all?

Let me try another way of putting this into perspective. Say the G7 thing started back in 1972. Seven corps self-selected on the basis of 1972 results, presented a PowerPoint slide show in May 1973, did TOC shows in 1974 and 1975, and this MiM-renamed-back-to-TOC in 1976. In that context, your TOC show consists of the following corps (with their 1976 rankings in parentheses):

Santa Clara Vanguard (3rd)

27th Lancers (5th)

Blue Stars (9th)

Troopers (13th)

Argonne Rebels (18th)

Kingsmen (19th)

Des Plaines Vanguard (31st)

Meanwhile, pick seven non-TOC corps:

Blue Devils (1st)

Madison Scouts (2nd)

Phantom Regiment (4th)

Bridgemen (6th)

Cavaliers (7th)

Oakland Crusaders (8th)

Seneca Optimists (10th)

Will the 1976 TOC show draw the bigger crowd?

[2B or not 2B]

1) The original question dealt with show sponsors. Most fans simply do not care who sponsors a show (save the hard-headed few that won't ever got to, say, a YEA sponsored show). Most drum corps fans that haven't been to a TOC show don't know there's added-value content, so it really isn't likely to be a factor in attendance one way or the other, at least not yet. I do suspect that fans who've experienced that added-value stuff enjoy it and would welcome it at all shows. I know I would.

2) Most fans do not read or post on DCP, so we are really only speculating on what they do and don't want/like/do. It's a fairly safe speculation, though, as I've noted above.

The question we should be asking is whether "most fans" would attend a G7/TOC/MM/whatever show vs a non-those guys show at a nearby venue on the same night.

Let's posit the following scenario:

Show A: A TOC show, featuring the 7 TOC corps

Show B: A DCI show, featuring 7 non-TOC corps

The shows are within a reasonable driving distance on the same night, with similar ticket prices. I know which show I'll attend, and I suspect I know which will draw the bigger crowd.

In answer to the last part of above.

.Ok let's see.

You Get:

What are the 7 "Best Corps in the World + all the goodies of the TOC & MiM type Show. It will be held at (what I still call) Giants Stadium. Nice big NFL Stadium.

I Get:

Boston Crusaders - Madison Scouts - Spirit of Atlanta - Crosssmen - Blue Stars - Troopers - Jersey Surf. Then because you have ALL those other goodies going on (before, during, and after). I get to have Exhibition Corps. I choose before show by the Bridgemen, and the Reading Buc's between last Corps and Scores. (nothing after scores, like you get). Mine will be at Rutgers Univ. A nice size Stadium. I know not as nice or big as yours. But I will just have to make do.

Yes that would be "A BIG Chalenge" too many.

BUT, I still have a problem with Ticket price's. You get, like I say what are "The Best 7 in the World", and the Big NFL Stadium. I get the left overs. Is it Fair to Charge the SAME?

[garfield]

And it sounds like the overwhelming opinion is that no, regular fans wouldn't care. They want to see the corps they want to see, and if they can see that group together in one setting, they'll go, regardless of whether the corps themselves are producing the show or whether DCI is collecting the gate.

One of these days it would be an interesting experiment for DCI to try operating a season in which rather than the package pricing they have now, they instead instituted a minimum performance fee (of let's say, $1,400) per corps, but then allowed the individual show sponsors to negotiate with the specific corps they wanted. Were that to happen, it would start letting the market work in a way that the current system doesn't, and give the individual corps directors an incentive to make their corps as desirable as possible for the TEP presenters. Being a past title winner wouldn't necessarily be as important a draw as being entertaining, so a corps that might not be a Top 5 or 6, but had a unique draw, would still have an opportunity to capitalize on their skill at creating programs and an identity that people liked.

Were that to happen, all the G7 discussion would go by the wayside, since each corps would be given a chance to realize their real market value (and as a side benefit, you wouldn't have to have sheets to try and encourage corps to be "more entertaining" - the paycheck at the end of the night would be the real motivator, whatever the judges have to say).

Waiting to hear the first response from someone who will say that such an idea would only further empower the top corps - which would only underscore THEIR point in terms of their market value relative to the field. :tongue:/>/>/>

Although I agree with your "free-market" concept, it clearly is not something DCI or the corps are interested in doing. It is made very clear that TEP's are NOT to contact corps directly to schedule a show, and that rule came at the request of the directors themselves.

DCI discourages, and does not accept, requests for specific corps to fill out a line-up. "We sell a show package" is DCI's response and it's not negotiable. A TEP can't pick and choose.

And, when you think about the nature of the free market, by design the product becomes commoditized and prices and margins get compressed. If the corps performance is the commodity, then those corps will naturally have to charge less if the activity is able to grow corps again.

This is one concept that I believe the G7 knows all-to-well. If they can create scarcity among the "top" corps they have a better chance of controlling the performance fees. If there are more corps (supply) then costs (performance fees charged) will naturally decline.

Of course, it's been so long (like, ever) since the activity was growing corps, it's possible that this supply/demand/cost dynamic hasn't been considered by those wishing to "grow" the activity by promoting the birth of new corps.

[garfield]

We have had that thread already, several times over. Did you miss them all?

Let me try another way of putting this into perspective. Say the G7 thing started back in 1972. Seven corps self-selected on the basis of 1972 results, presented a PowerPoint slide show in May 1973, did TOC shows in 1974 and 1975, and this MiM-renamed-back-to-TOC in 1976. In that context, your TOC show consists of the following corps (with their 1976 rankings in parentheses):

Santa Clara Vanguard (3rd)

27th Lancers (5th)

Blue Stars (9th)

Troopers (13th)

Argonne Rebels (18th)

Kingsmen (19th)

Des Plaines Vanguard (31st)

Meanwhile, pick seven non-TOC corps:

Blue Devils (1st)

Madison Scouts (2nd)

Phantom Regiment (4th)

Bridgemen (6th)

Cavaliers (7th)

Oakland Crusaders (8th)

Seneca Optimists (10th)

Will the 1976 TOC show draw the bigger crowd?

This is an outstanding post that should make all fans of the G7's tactics think twice and three times.