TOC/G7 Related Discussion

[MikeD]

...... and in your view, just what exactly is the " missing components " that Drum Corps apparently need to make them presumably " complete " ? Would you care to list them ? I am curious.

I've always thought there should be no limitations placed on instruments, be it brass, percussion, woodwinds, strings, etc...whatever a group wants to use.

I've made no secret of that here in DCP, for sure.

It won't happen any time soon, sad to say, but that is MHO.

[Jeff Ream]

But will it remain what kids want to do when drum corps looks, sounds, and feels like "the king marching bands"?

many kids now say "oh look, we did that last year"

because innovation in DCI is rare...it's taken in HS band. it's not the kids...it's the adults

[cixelsyd]

Do high school marching bands compete during the summer?

Is drum corps and high school marching band an either/or thing?

I don't understand the attempted linkage of the rise of high school marching band and the decline in drum corps. When I did it, I did both. And there wasn't a conflict.

Is this another one of those strawmen that, under closer examination, falls apart?

It does not completely fall apart. Depending on school schedules and the summer rehearsal plans of individual bands, there can be conflicts between the DCI season and the often mandatory "band camp" of a competitive HS band program.

[cixelsyd]

Deleted your points just for message size. They're all right on target. Unfortunately they mostly addressed "why it's so easy to change" vs. "why lower tiers corps can't keep their kids". I get that part of your argument is that "it's easy to do" but I don't think that answers some fundamental points. After all these kids have completed a full season of blood, sweat, and tears with a 149 other kids.

"Lower tier" corps do keep some of their kids. Some kids, however, want to place higher in the competitive hierarchy. When they see how little movement there is in the competitive placement order from year to year, they conclude that the only way to move substantially upward is to switch corps.

The factors I listed explain why this practice has become more commonplace over the years.

[Stu]

True, no marching groups have ever used woodwinds outdoors before. :huh:/>

Most, if not all, of the marching groups you are referring to:

a) Each student is responsible for purchasing and maintaining their own woodwind instrument (and plastic clarinets are a norm).

b) These groups are not using the instruments 9 - 12 hours per day, 7 days a week, out on the road 3 - 4 months of the year.

c) Talk to any reputable instrument repair specialist and they will give you a maintenance and repair cost estimate based on the riggers of a drum corps season which will blow a hole in your theory that marching band woodwind sections are financially feasible in drum corps situations.

[Kamarag]

Most, if not all, of the marching groups you are referring to:

a) Each student is responsible for purchasing and maintaining their own woodwind instrument (and plastic clarinets are a norm).

Lol, no. Not even close. Many, many bands supply instruments. In fact, most bands I have taught either do not allow, or strongly recommend against, students using their own instruments outside.

b) These groups are not using the instruments 9 - 12 hours per day, 7 days a week, out on the road 3 - 4 months of the year.

True, but if properly maintained, it wouldn't matter. The "maintained" part is the key, as there's a different type of training required for woodwinds. Many brass technicians won't touch woodwinds beyond standard maintenance.

c) Talk to any reputable instrument repair specialist and they will give you a maintenance and repair cost estimate based on the riggers of a drum corps season which will blow a hole in your theory that marching band woodwind sections are financially feasible in drum corps situations.

Yea, absolutely true. But this isn't the reason we won't be seeing lines of flutes and clarinets in drum corps.

I have no doubt that woodwinds will one day be legal, but not how many think they will. What we may see is woodwinds used (restricted by rule or practicality) in the pit, and amplified. That's really the only viable way that woodwinds would make any meaningful musical contribution to a drum corps show at the World Class level.

You could have a line of 20 clarinets and they wouldn't be heard in a million years unless they were completely isolated. This is the main reason I don't see it happening, and as I've said before, all the bluster in the world by certain directors won't amount to a hill of beans until you get traction in the instructor's caucus. And believe me when I tell you that the instructors have close to zero interest in adopting woodwinds in any form.

[MikeD]

... all the bluster in the world by certain directors won't amount to a hill of beans until you get traction in the instructor's caucus. And believe me when I tell you that the instructors have close to zero interest in adopting woodwinds in any form.

Yup...while I personally favor allowing them in any way a corps desires, that is 100% true.

[13strokeroll]

a) I am not 'hating' on anyone; just pointing out that the DCI drum corps activity has drastically changed. Many of of the 400+ 'Local' corps which have died out since the 1970's took kids off the streets, not seasoned scholastically trained music students from BOA/TOB/UIL programs; those 'Local' corps placed bugles and drum sticks in their hands instead of them having drugs and real loaded guns out on the streets, and they were not concerned about collecting national touring fees or winning a cold dumb piece of medal. I am pointing out that today, no matter how 'industrious' an inner city kid caught up in a gang-bang situation is, those 'Local' corps which used to be a part of DCI are long gone; and it certainly does now take a family with access to available resources (not just an industrious kid) to be in a situation where the kid is attending a school providing a quality 'music' program while the kid is simultaneously involved in both a BOA/TOB/UIL caliber band and a DCI competitive corps. Ergo, the drum corps activity has morphed into one in which, for the most part, only a select few can financially afford to engage.

b) Also, I am not exaggerating the annual fee for a typical DCI WC corps, the annual fee for a typical BOA Finalist band, and the cost of flights for long-distance corps camps (say a kid from OK going to both FL and MA to attend Crusader camps). Combined, all of that can cost nearly $7,000 - $9,000 per year. Try telling that to an 'industrious' kid who's family cannot afford to send their kid to college let alone to a drum corps; especially those in a neighborhoods where kids who used to be able to go down to the 'Local' Catholic center to a "Local' drum corps rehearsal, get a bugle instead of a syringe, and be a part of the DCI activity.

Well, I guess you are correct. Your figures aren't exaggerated, they are completely fabricated. Since you have difficulty reading, I'll make it simple...your math is WAY off. My evidence: we did it in the $4500 range. Family, donations,sponsors, car-pooling...whatever it took. Also marching in an SEC band the following fall from far less than an "entitled" or independently wealthy background. The last I checked, that sounds to be nearly the very definition of the term "industrious."

Edited April 1, 2013 by 13strokeroll

[BRASSO]

Yup...while I personally favor allowing them in any way a corps desires, that is 100% true.

I now fullly understand that you really are a Marching Band fan above all else, MikeD. You are in favor of bringing in the woodwinds, saxophones, etc so that for all intents and purposes there'd be no distinction at all between "Marching Band" and that of "Drum Corps" and so the transition from " Corps " to " Marching Band "...which is what you want to happen... will have then been complete.

Thats because there is no way in the world... in my opinion here... that a musical unit marching down the street with flutes, saxophones, trombones, etc is a " Drum Corps ". You are of course certainly entitled to believe otherwise, ie, that such a unit with these instruments is not a " Marching Band " but is instead a " Drum Corps ", MikeD. Well... no it wouldn't be. Not to me anyway. I would not even be in favor of them bastardizing the name of " Drum Corps " by such a unit calling themselves a " Drum Corps ", while performing in public with flutes, saxophones, trombones, etc. In my view, it would be an insult to the name of the " Drum and Bugle Corps ", or for that matter even the use of the moniker of " Drum Corps " to describe themselves.

Edited April 1, 2013 by BRASSO

[MikeD]

I now fullly understand that you really are a Marching Band fan above all else, MikeD. As you are in favor of bringing in the woodwinds, saxophones, etc so that for all intents and purposes there'd be no distinction at all between "Marching Band" and that of "Drum Corps" and so the transition from " Corps " to " Marching Band "...which is what you want to happen... will have then been complete.

Thats because there is no way in the world... in my opinion here... that a musical unit marching down the street with flutes, saxophones, trombones, etc is a " Drum Corps ". You are of course certainly entitled to believe otherwise, ie, that such a unit with these instruments is not a " Marching Band " but is instead a " Drum Corps ", MikeD. Well... no it wouldn't be. Not to me anyway. I would not even be in favor of them bastardazing the name of " Drum Corps " by such a unit calling themselves a " Drum Corps ", while performing in public with flutes, saxophones, trombones, etc. It would be an insult to the name of " Drum and Bugle Corps ", or for that matter even " Drum Corps ".

Color Guards do not guard the colors, and there is a lot more to percussion than drums, and horns have not been bugles for decades. I don't care what they'd call it.

I am a fan of DCI and DCA; I only see such a thing happening if the powers-that-be thought it necessary to the survival of the activity. Until then, it is just an academic exercise.

if I were King of the Forest, I would create a distinct 'anything goes' division, where any instrumentation and any size ensemble is permitted to compete.