TOC/G7 Related Discussion

[JimF-LowBari]

To me, DCA is very silly... a bunch of guys out there trying to relive their youth (yeah, yeah... guys will point out that there are younger kids involved now... etc. save it). If there are adults involved on the performance side... at all... it is never anything I will get into.... just the same way I have no interest in watching an adult softball league.

Fine then don't get into it as that's your freedom... But don't parade your biases as fact. And I know better than to bother asking your DCA experience....

Guess the idea that adults are actually doing DCA because they LIKE performing never entered your mind. And same could be said for many in the Alumni type word. Personally I like playing horn and think the idea of never doing it because of my age is stupid. And I'm still waiting for someone from the two ALumni type corps I've been with to even infer that they are trying to recapture anything from their past. May talk about some old stories but that's about it.

And I would not want to relive my youth....

Edited April 6, 2013 by JimF-LowBari

[garfield]

Drum corps should not appeal to everyone. It should focus more on appealing to youth. Needs to have a bit more of an edge, be a bit riskier.

The whole Marching Music Day petition is so ####### backwards, I don't even know where to start.

Kids don't flock to something that is accepted and endorsed by establishment... that is the exact opposite of cool.

What is cool... is playing the establishment... punking them... like this.

If you want to get kids interested in this thing... recognition by the government and establishment figures is EXACTLY the wrong way to go. This couldn't be more off the mark if you tried.

Sorry, long... (I couldn't stop myself)

I suspect that, either: a. you're talking about the activity as an entertainment idiom, or b. your view of kids is too broad and, while it may reflect your surroundings over there, they do not reflect American kids' situation or perspective (I don't know much about Lithuanian kids, but I do have my own American kids).

Drum corps may be an entertainment idiom to the people in the stands, but consider the idiom from the perspective of kids on the field. Your comparisons to other entertainment idioms, mostly pop music examples, all compare the entertainment value of the activity from the stands. But put your comparisons in the context of the marching members that DCI is trying to attract. Do they want to attract kids to sit in the stands as fans? No. They're trying to attract a kid to come sit in the stands once, then go try out the next year. They're trying to attract kids to participate, not enjoy (singularly) the entertainment value from the stands. Kids viewing the activity to potentially march look at drum corps differently than they do Lady GaGa (or whoever is now popular).

I get that kids want to attend concerts that are anti-establishment - that human nature has been around since the beginning. But going to SEE non-mainstream entertainment is not the same as participating in non-mainstream entertainment. How many parents of kids would approve of their kid actually being on stage at a heavy metal concert versus being in the audience? And how many parents are going to pay for, let alone approve of, their kid piercing themselves, going goth, and banging heads? They may let their kids go to see that but actually paying for their desire to participate in that? I think most parents would say no.

So getting kids interested in participating in drum corps is not the same as defining what entertainment is to those same kids. Kids who do drum corps don't do it because it's anti-establishment. They consider the other parts of participating in drum corps to be more important; we all know what they are. I just don't believe that a significant part of a potential MM's decision process is based on how well what they play will entertain the crowd. And if you believe that, then you'd have to accept that more kids would try out for Surf based on the response to Surf's show last year. They trust the writers and designers to make that decision just as they were taught in band. As many kids try out for Phantom as do 'Coats or Crown or Cadets, and Phantom's rep is about as far removed from what MOST of those kids listen to as is their music taste from their parent's. Kids want to get a positive reaction, sure, but regardless of what the directors put in front of them they want to tackle the challenge, do their absolute best, and be driven by vets who can take them to a higher level. Many - most - of those same kids listen to popular, anti-establishment music.

If drum corps were to adopt your policy of getting more edgy, you might very well attract a bunch of kids to sit in the stands and watch it. But we want them to march, and we want their parents to buy tickets (A "three-bagger" vs. your "one-bagger" solution). Parents let their kids go to pop concerts that are edgy, but how many parents actually go to those concerts with their kids? How many parents will pay to sit at a drum corps concert and sit through your version of "edgy"? I'd suggest relatively few.

If drum corps is an "entertainment" activity (versus a kid activity) then the entertainment darn well be directed at the average age of the people watching it. If drum corps got "edgy" it's likely the parents would come to watch their kids. But getting those same parents to bring friends for an evening of "edgy" drum corps would be much more difficult and significantly diminish, IMO, the referral success of those parent/fans. Again, most parents do not go with their kids to the pop concerts the kids enjoy.

There are plenty enough band kids out there for us to attract, and to consider healthy growth, who haven't spent their marching lives playing "edgy" band shows. Lets market to them first, and get their parents in the stands and inviting their friends, and produce entertainment to make those things easy. Attract kids based on what drum corps does for them, personally, not for what entertainment effect their show will have on the fans; something that they can't control no matter how hard they work perfecting their show.

I think the best growth path for the activity is to get more kids in corps, not focus on getting more fans in the stands. Get the parents buying tickets. Then repeat by attracting more kids to what drum corps does for them, personally, to get more parents in the stands.

Your solution of changing drum corps to be entertainment you think will attract more non-drum-corps people in the stands is like a fart in the wind; you'll be forever trying to change to what's hip. But if you focus on what drum corps does for the kid's lives and market that, you'll get their parents anyway and you won't have to change that fart in the wind every year. And you'll grow kids, not just entertain them. And you'll free up the corps to design whatever they darn well please because the parents will be in the stands anyway.

And DCI better figure out how to grow drum corps because, if they are successful in attracting the HS kids and growing organically, the activity will soon need more corps than it has now. Growing more corps in which more kids can participate is a completely different focus than placing all of your attention on the "Top" corps in hopes that what you produce as entertainment will attract ticket-buyers.

And yes, I know that having more kids in the stands is desirous, too. But you can't convince me kids will view a marching band playing GaGa in the same way they view Lady GaGa herself in concert. To them, it's still marching band. And kids buy cheap seats, to boot. Their parents pay full boat to sit on the 50 and watch their kids. But how many parents are going to go with their kids to watch a marching band play GaGa? Few, IMO. So you only sell one ticket. Get that kid to march for what it does for him and you'll sell many more tickets.

Refocus the activity on extolling the virtues of what drum corps does for the members, personally. Make the challenge attractive. Give more kids the chance to step up to corps even if they don't have the greatest chops, and show them that they get the same personal benefit no matter which corps they march with. The same number of family and friends will pay to see them do drum corps in Cascades as they will in BD. And if you play stuff that those parents will like the odds are greater that they'll want to, and be able to, invite their adult friends to sit through "entertainment" as the parent sees it (and, likely, their friends).

Parents won't pay to go with their kids to WATCH "edgy" drum corps. You only sell one ticket to a kid, but you sell two (or more) if you get him to march.

Forget "edgy" entertainment. It's the wrong focus.

Face the reality that drum corp will never be mainstream to either kids or parents, and attract the kids already disposed to participate in the marching activity based on what it will do for them, personally.

Get more kids. Build more corps.

Edited April 6, 2013 by garfield

[garfield]

Not really sure exactly what you mean... but.... the British did, in fact, come. :)

You got exactly what I mean. I don't disagree that the British are coming, I disagree with what you'd do to stop them.

[JimF-LowBari]

Not reading all the pages as busy today but just have to ask:

How do you sell a group of people dressed pretty much the same way (they're called uniforms for a reason), moving in precise patterns, playing together, living your summer by a schedule set by grown-ups (last three you're taking a LOT of orders) and being in a group that costs hundreds of thousands to operate over the year as edgy, cool, non-conformist, etc, etc.

I'm old enought to be almost the target audiences grandfather but sounds like BS to me. Just comes across as "It's cool cuz we say so". Thoughts of George Harrisons scene in Hard Days Night" when meeting the girl who is supposed to be what "everyone wants to be". GHs response "Oh yeah we watch her all the time.... then laugh..".

Edited April 6, 2013 by JimF-LowBari

[danielray]

Sorry, long... (I couldn't stop myself)

I suspect that, either: a. you're talking about the activity as an entertainment idiom, or b. your view of kids is too broad and, while it may reflect your surroundings over there, they do not reflect American kids' situation or perspective (I don't know much about Lithuanian kids, but I do have my own American kids).

I'm simply say that drum corps is geeky enough as it is... and a push to make Super Band Day isn't helping the situation.

There is an image problem in all of marching music. Until that image problem is addressed, it will have limited potential.

The image thing is pretty real. Needs to be less dorky.

[garfield]

The solution is to make more money.

It has no comparison to a family... there is no analogy here.

To keep drum corps interesting and for kids to aspire to do it, there needs to be a considerable gap between high school marching band and drum corps in both performance level and quality of experience offered.

I do not think the way forward is a lot more drum corps spending a couple hundred thousand a year.

Again, you're focused on the entertainment as a basis for kids to do it as if entertainment inspires them to march. No, it doesn't. Attaining another level of excellence inspires them to march. If you're suggesting that making drum corps "edgy" creates a significant enough gap between it and their HS band, and that will get them involved, I disagree unless you can show me how "edgy" creates a step up from their HS band (there are plenty of "edgy" HS band shows every year). If you're suggesting that what kids actually play is more challenging because drum corps is "edgy", I'd like for you to prove that. I'd suggest that what OC kids play is significantly more difficult that what the vast majority of HS bands play. It has nothing to do with "edgy", it has to do with technical writing and teaching capabilities of each corps.

EVERY single drum corps was, at one point, a "couple-hundred-thousand"-spending corps. And their parents were in the stands and buying souvies when they were. The only chance to be a "Top" corps (sans a Bill Cook solution) is to first be an OC corps spending a whole lot less than the finalists.

[garfield]

Not a sustainable model.

Focus too much on adults and kids aren't going to want to do it.

Already there are more kids involved in WGI... because it is a lot more progressive and in a lot of ways a lot more interesting.

Baloney, Dan. Kids who have experience in marching music and aspire to be in drum corps won't do so because it's "edgy", they'll do it for very personal reasons of what that experience will do for them. They go see GaGa to be entertained. They don't do drum corps to be entertained; you can't convince me that they that think their 10-hour days of rehearsal will be entertaining, no matter what the show design.

You're focused on the wrong solution.

[JimF-LowBari]

Baloney, Dan. Kids who have experience in marching music and aspire to be in drum corps won't do so because it's "edgy", they'll do it for very personal reasons of what that experience will do for them. They go see GaGa to be entertained. They don't do drum corps to be entertained; you can't convince me that they that think their 10-hour days of rehearsal will be entertaining, no matter what the show design.

You're focused on the wrong solution.

So what would be "edgy" for Drum Corps... doing GaGa type music? Doing a Alice Cooper/Marilyn Manson (Insane Clown Posse ) type of show? Still sounds like MB trying to be "with it" and failing badly.

OK, substitute Drum Corps with Polka Bands, Mummers or Harmonicats you might get my point better.

[garfield]

My business partner and I started a group that is producing 2 drum corps (about 220 kids at rehearsals each week and growing). Created it out of thin air, run it, teach brass, teach marching, arrange music, fundraise, recruit... you name it. That is sort of being in the game.

It is an entirely different model than US and it's a pretty humble start... but having a great time.

Why didn't you instead focus on simply getting your kids to attend a pop concert because it's entertaining? Did you start your group, and attract your kids, on the thesis that they will be entertained by the experience? I'll bet not.

Are your kids having fun? Sure, darn right, I'll bet. Yet, how many of your kids listen to "edgy" entertainment and is your new group "edgy"?

Your very own success contradicts your solution for DCI's growth. If you were true to your solution, you'd spend your time helping young kids raise the money they need to fly to America to see a TOC show. Or you'd spend your time fundraising to get BD to come to you :tongue:/>.

But NO-O-O, you have to START a corps. Why?

[garfield]

(I see JohnZ hovering... as he does anytime I'm posting, it seems. Looks like he's itching to close this one :-))

It's not you, Dan. You're not ALWAYS the center of the discussion. :tongue:/>

It's Stu. Nobody likes Stu :tongue:/>.

(Sorry, buddy, you know I'm just yankin' the chain.)