MikeD Posted May 9, 2013 Share Posted May 9, 2013 Content vs. performance quality (Two different things) I think many of us who have been around feel the content (material chosen and presenations/arrangements) was better a handful of years ago but feel that corps performance quality is far better now. And many of us who have been around think the content (material chosen and presentations/arrangements) is better now and also feel that corps performance quality is far better now. To each their own, of course. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted May 9, 2013 Share Posted May 9, 2013 (edited) I watched this (76 video) with an open mind. I loved that time but as I watch the corps of today I know that drum corps today is better and in a strange way MORE entertaining from an ALL AROUND point of view. Two points. You said that you watched the 76 show on video, and compared it to corps of today that you watch live ( and perhaps on video as well ). Would you agree that watching Corps of today live outdoors in an audience is infinitely better than watching them them alone on video on a computer ? That the experience on video does not take in the full panorama of what your eyes and ears can take in when it is performed live ? That watching a Corps " on video " is a rather poor representation of seeing and hearing it live ? For example, the Spirit of Atlanta's closer of " Let it be Me ", from 1979, 1980 can be watched and heard on video on Fan Network. But the sound of their closer captured on 1970's sound technology from that era is a horrible attempt at trying to replicate the live performance. Its like listening to a 1970's vinyl album ( all mono, no stereo, bass, etc pickup ) on a needle on turnstyle of a Fleetwood Mac Concert and trying to compare that poor audible reproduction with the live outdoor concert from the 70's itself. One does a comparison from a video taken in the 70's with something live ( or even on tape with better technologies of today ) and it is fraught with an unfair comparison right from the getgo. The audience reproduction taped " sound " is not the real, live " sound " of an audience either. Again, I'm not neccessarily agreeing nor disagreeing with you on your premise. I'm just stating that comparing something on poorly made tapes from the 70's with anything in this era that has been seen live, really is not an apt comparison. To illustrate further, we have tapes from the 50's and 60's Drum Corps on Youtube. Try watching and listening to those visually and audible travesties taken with 50's technology with the blurry screen lines, and the muddled, distorted sounds. Listen to the audience clapping and tell me if the sound of the clapping is the same as the real sound of you clapping your hands.... or better yet, if the reproduced sounds of the audience clapping on these 50's, 60's, ( and 70's) tapes is the same sound of the live, clapping you hear at live shows of today. If anyone thinks those video and audio reproductions are a good representation of what it was like live for those audiences in the 50's and 60's, then they'd be making the same mistake as well.............. Secondly, If I set aside for a moment whether I agree or disagree with our comment that Corps of today are " better and more entertaining ", and just accept your premise that they are, then how do you account for the fact that the live attendance of the DCI Finals audience for last season was significantly smaller than the live DCI Finals audience of 1976 that you mention here ? Edited May 9, 2013 by BRASSO 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c mor Posted May 9, 2013 Share Posted May 9, 2013 These are all great posts. I too, am amazed by the level of demand, excellence and sophistication. Keith - even though I marched back then, that was then this is now. Now is great. Then was great then, but not so great now. (sounds like the Progressive commercial) Brasso - I agree, the sound is what hooked me into drum corps, both the beats the line played, and the sheer volume of the horns...loved it. I think now can seem sterile to us maybe. I think it would be more entertaining if the corps didn't meet up all together in any shows until finals week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted May 9, 2013 Share Posted May 9, 2013 It's real simple...judging system has to be altered to reward entertainment. See, this is where we start to get into silly thinking: how exactly does one quantify "entertainment" consistently from judge-judge? The answer, or course, is that one can't. Entertainment is so crazy subjective: even more so when it comes to judging design: at least when judging design elements there is a pretty explicit rubric of bullet points of things judges need to consider from a technical standpoint. Believe it or not, many judges are entertained by current DCI & WGI programs. There are actually judges were are highly entertained by BD year after year! It is seemingly impossible to judge "entertainment," and I wouldn't want to see that kind of nonsense muddying up scores. I'm 100% OK with giving out 'Audience Favorite' award (or whatever name people want to call it), as a separate Award from rankings/ratings. But trying to mix some vaugeish concept like "entertainment" with design and performance rubrics would REALLY send things in the wrong direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted May 9, 2013 Share Posted May 9, 2013 I think it would be more entertaining if the corps didn't meet up all together in any shows until finals week. They did that for awhile in the late-90's. Part of me thinks that's a cool idea, part of me would rather go to a show and see every WC corps competing head-to-head. I'm sure from a revenue standpoint, DCI probably does better from a financial standpoint with the one-day super regionals they have now (only renting stadium one night, only having to house judges & staff one night, etc). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triple Forte Posted May 9, 2013 Share Posted May 9, 2013 It is seemingly impossible to judge "entertainment," and I wouldn't want to see that kind of nonsense muddying up scores. I'm 100% OK with giving out 'Audience Favorite' award (or whatever name people want to call it), as a separate Award from rankings/ratings. But trying to mix some vaugeish concept like "entertainment" with design and performance rubrics would REALLY send things in the wrong direction. So obvious question....what if we find the 'Audience favorite' and 'Judges favorite' never line up? Is this good/healthy for activity looking to grow is fanbase? I am not suggesting that getting entertainment/excitement in the judging system would be easy...but something tells me we have enough experienced people involved with this activity that something could be figured out. soap box alert: Honestly...if the ego stroking between staff's, arrangers and judges keeps going on and on and on....they will be the only ones left to watch the corps. In it's current form...dci corps need fans.....maybe they should try to keep that in mind a bit more before picking and arranging a program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted May 9, 2013 Share Posted May 9, 2013 So obvious question....what if we find the 'Audience favorite' and 'Judges favorite' never line up? Is this good/healthy for activity looking to grow is fanbase? Irrelevant. Judges are ranking/rating based on specific guidelines on their sheets while the audience is judging based on "enjoyment," "entertainment," "judging for home team," "judging against a specific corps," etc. I think, to be honest, anytime the audience can be actively engaged it's healthy/good: even more so if the fan favorite doesn't like up with Champions - that gives fans a chance to crown whom they want, and would give them an outlet to make them feel like a part of the event. Conversely it would have zero affect on the outcome of the scores, so even if a YEA show packs in Cadets alumni/friends/fans/family who blatantly vote for Cadets over 'favorites' from other shows, there is a kind of "no harm/no foul" thought. I disagree with many sentiments on DCP as far as who is more entertaining, who folks think were better, what show designs are inherently boring, etc. But I wouldn't begrudge fan favorite type awards, or, for that matter, really care if my favorite isn't the fan favorite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted May 9, 2013 Share Posted May 9, 2013 Honestly...if the ego stroking between staff's, arrangers and judges keeps going on and on and on....they will be the only ones left to watch the corps. In it's current form...dci corps need fans.....maybe they should try to keep that in mind a bit more before picking and arranging a program. See, once we get into "soothsaying" mode, the argument starts lacking all credibility. DCI has reported that numbers at their events are up; numbers for the DCI Theater experience have steadily risen throughout the years. There is little/no indication that DCI is alienating fans at this point other than grumpy internet posts. Yes, more fans would always be great, but if there are zero indications that fans are leaving the activity, maybe things are actually OK the way they are currently from an individual corps design spectrum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted May 9, 2013 Share Posted May 9, 2013 (edited) See, this is where we start to get into silly thinking: how exactly does one quantify "entertainment" consistently from judge-judge? While I understand the point you are making regarding the difficulty of judging " entertainment ", we already have 2 judges in some captions ( " Percussion Caption" at Finals , for example ) looking at the same execution level performance related caption and giving disparate scores and placements on the same Corps in performance. So if we can tolerate this percussion performance execution " subjectivity ", I see no reason why we can't tolerate the "subjectivity " of judges, judging the level of " entertainment ", or what used to be called " General Effect " with audiences. Also, If we can tolerate a DCI judge judging the execution performance of ( for example ) a Corps rock guitarist playing of a rock guitar in performance, ( as was done in DCI judged on field competition ) why is it then somehow any less acceptable to allow judges to judge the entertainment value of that rock guitar playing with an audience ? Edited May 9, 2013 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted May 9, 2013 Share Posted May 9, 2013 See, this is where we start to get into silly thinking: how exactly does one quantify "entertainment" consistently from judge-judge? The answer, or course, is that one can't. Entertainment is so crazy subjective: even more so when it comes to judging design: at least when judging design elements there is a pretty explicit rubric of bullet points of things judges need to consider from a technical standpoint. Believe it or not, many judges are entertained by current DCI & WGI programs. There are actually judges were are highly entertained by BD year after year! It is seemingly impossible to judge "entertainment," and I wouldn't want to see that kind of nonsense muddying up scores. I'm 100% OK with giving out 'Audience Favorite' award (or whatever name people want to call it), as a separate Award from rankings/ratings. But trying to mix some vaugeish concept like "entertainment" with design and performance rubrics would REALLY send things in the wrong direction. agreed. I think if anything needs to change on the sheets, it's the weight of performance vs the weight of demand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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