Differences in BD, Cavies, Cadets Championship seasons

[drilltech1]

Agreed. Now let's be honest...being a Cadet means you have a shot on paper every off season. You can say many things about Hop and YEA, and god knows I have, and will continue to, but you cannot deny the machine put together. Aungst leaves? Ok you get Colin. Sacktig for Mark Sylvester. it goes on.

IMO, if there is one flaw in the machine it's Hop......he gets too invested in the design and perhaps tweaks too much with agendas.

Amen!!!

[charlie1223]

BD goes by the mantra "work smarter, not harder." Works pretty well for them...better than Cadets if you rack up the caption and ring wins.

You don't have to beat your kids into the ground to get results. There are any number of stories of people who came to BD from other corps and were shocked at the more relaxed atmosphere (when required) and the results the staff got out of the members.

Saying Cadets work harder than anyone else isn't an indicator of anything...and it kinda slaps in the face any other cops out there, in all divisions.

Have you been to a Cadet rehearsal lately? They put more hours into rehearsal than most other corps hands down. However, it is absolutely more efficient and relaxed than what the stereotype is (or atleast the one you have in your mind). To think that BD are the only ones that "work smarter, not harder" is about as stupid as saying Cadets and other corps "beat their kids into the ground".

I don't think just because BD has the most rings (only 5 more than cadets btw) that suddenly their way is "better". In fact you could say BD's approach is worse if you look at individual value that each person gains by the different approaches or use any other subjective method. I mean Cadets shows require different skill sets than BD shows, like being able to march and play at the same time. (Hehehehe)

There are also many stories of people who come to cadets expecting certain things that simply aren't true, it goes both ways.

I mean I will say that Cadets approach is far superior to that of BD on a number of levels that perhaps you may not value since you have a fixation on rings as the ultimate subjective measurement of "effectiveness".

Edited June 4, 2013 by charlie1223

[drummer5485]

Says the guy in the pit...

Says the guy who was on the field and at camps with this corps for 3 years and saw the process of learning and cleaning as well as all the charts and heard from members marching it. Did you march any of the corps he's talking about? Then how do you know? At least I have some information to go by. I didn't say Cadets didn't march incredibly hard drill but to say Gaine's drill is simple and easier to clean is just asinine.

[whitedawn]

Says the guy who was on the field and at camps with this corps for 3 years and saw the process of learning and cleaning as well as all the charts and heard from members marching it. Did you march any of the corps he's talking about? Then how do you know? At least I have some information to go by. I didn't say Cadets didn't march incredibly hard drill but to say Gaine's drill is simple and easier to clean is just asinine.

Hey, this guy did college band for five years. That's got to be worth something.

[kickhaltsforlife]

Says the guy who was on the field and at camps with this corps for 3 years and saw the process of learning and cleaning as well as all the charts and heard from members marching it. Did you march any of the corps he's talking about? Then how do you know? At least I have some information to go by. I didn't say Cadets didn't march incredibly hard drill but to say Gaine's drill is simple and easier to clean is just asinine.

You don't have to march a corps to see how their drill works. There is this option on the DVD called high camera. And all the information you could want about the drill is right there. You can see step sizes, direction changes, length of phrases, count structure, etc.

Everyone who marches drum corps says their drill is hard... because well.. it is. Marching and playing at the same time is not easy. There are quite a bit of challenges, even going 8 to 5 straight forward or backwards.

You have to take into account how much playing and moving at the same time a corps does, especially as the drill gets more difficult.

I have done much analyzing of the drill of these top 3 corps from the past decade and more. I don't need to march in a group to tell you how difficult it is.

And FTR I wasn't saying how easy their drill was. I was saying it was easier and "smarter" than Cadet drill (in the Gaines era that is......). Still as effective. Still entertaining. Just not quite at the demand level Cadets consistently perform at. Especially with the simultaneous responsibility of marching and playing.

Cavies tend to put their horns down and run. Cadets tend to just play louder when they run. Just two different design choices. That both work. One isn't right or wrong, or better than the other. One IS harder than the other though. And that I do know from experience marching and playing a horn in marching band and drum corps.

Edited June 4, 2013 by kickhaltsforlife

[onceuponatime]

in 11 they went back and forth with BD a lot.

the key to Cadets is moreso than probably with any other corps, what you see in June is not what you see in August. Yes, talent wise, they do not always draw all pro players. That well known kaledioscopic whiplash drill takes a while to gel and clean. They change a ton. The staf isn't afraid to tinker. I once watched them rehearse a 4 count change for an hour....only to change it again. I know the working smarter vs harder debate has happened, but I also see a lot of intelligence in how Cadets design and rehearse...it's just a different style than say what BD does. But it works. I know people who marched there that probably shouldn't on paper have even sniffed the corps talent wise. But they worked their ##### off.

In todays environment of accusing kids of chasing rings etc, I'll say one thing for Cadets.....way more often than not, it's not the ring there. It's the chance to wear that uniform. Which is why Starting C2 was genius

You really seem to have a uniquely accurate understanding of The Cadets' internal organization, philosophy, and goals, relative to other corps in their competitive arena. Not a great many people who frequent DCP, from what I've observed (I'm not a regular DCP reader), have that ability, or perhaps just lack the interest (I'm not sure which) to look beyond the obvious and to recognize that different corps measure success by different yardsticks. You seem to have focused in on that, making what you write and how you write it, not only interesting but insightfully accurate. Thank you for what you bring to the table.

[theCHEZman]

You don't have to march a corps to see how their drill works. There is this option on the DVD called high camera. And all the information you could want about the drill is right there. You can see step sizes, direction changes, length of phrases, count structure, etc.

Everyone who marches drum corps says their drill is hard... because well.. it is. Marching and playing at the same time is not easy. There are quite a bit of challenges, even going 8 to 5 straight forward or backwards.

You have to take into account how much playing and moving at the same time a corps does, especially as the drill gets more difficult.

I have done much analyzing of the drill of these top 3 corps from the past decade and more. I don't need to march in a group to tell you how difficult it is.

And FTR I wasn't saying how easy their drill was. I was saying it was easier and "smarter" than Cadet drill (in the Gaines era that is......). Still as effective. Still entertaining. Just not quite at the demand level Cadets consistently perform at. Especially with the simultaneous responsibility of marching and playing.

Cavies tend to put their horns down and run. Cadets tend to just play louder when they run. Just two different design choices. That both work. One isn't right or wrong, or better than the other. One IS harder than the other though. And that I do know from experience marching and playing a horn in marching band and drum corps.

I love all the different styles of corps and that's what makes it so interesting but all one needs is 2 eyes to see the demand of the Cadets (most) years is near the top. Very rarely do they stop and play their difficult runs. They are usually running backwards doing it. Even Crown (who I loved last year) played a lot of their crazy runs standing still. It's not good or bad, just a fact...

[Jeff Ream]

You really seem to have a uniquely accurate understanding of The Cadets' internal organization, philosophy, and goals, relative to other corps in their competitive arena. Not a great many people who frequent DCP, from what I've observed (I'm not a regular DCP reader), have that ability, or perhaps just lack the interest (I'm not sure which) to look beyond the obvious and to recognize that different corps measure success by different yardsticks. You seem to have focused in on that, making what you write and how you write it, not only interesting but insightfully accurate. Thank you for what you bring to the table.

thanks. honestly...it just comes from observing them a lot, knowing many people that marched there, and even a few that taught there.

[Tad_MMA]

Agreed. Now let's be honest...being a Cadet means you have a shot on paper every off season. You can say many things about Hop and YEA, and god knows I have, and will continue to, but you cannot deny the machine put together. Aungst leaves? Ok you get Colin. Sactig for Mark. it goes on.

IMO, if there is one flaw in the machine it's Hop......he gets too invested in the design and perhaps tweaks too much with agendas.

On the other hand, isn't he the only Corps Director in DCI history to win 10 times? Other than BD's Wayne Downey, that consistency is unparalleled.

(And to those who downplay the competition in Drum Corps, rings might not be the total end result, but when was the last time SCV figured into this kind of discussion? They're the only corps to make Finals every year, yet they've been off the championship radar since that overrated 2004 show.)

[jwillis35]

In general I'd say the Cadets shows tend to fully mature much later in the season, often due to the demand it takes to clean them.

In 2011 they opened in 4th place. Then 2nd the next night. Then they went on to beat BD at every show out west. So they were certainly no surprise early in 2011. During the Cinecast of the first two shows you can hear Rondinero say "The Cadets will be heard from this season." No they didn't dominate all season. That show was too demanding and too spread over the field in such an intricate way for them to dominate so early, but it was clear which show had the most potential to take Worlds.

In 2005 they were certainly strong, but also a very difficult show and it needed time to gel and clean.

In 2000 they were dominant right out of the gate. 1 tie, no losses.

In 1998 they were fairly dominant that year. They might have lost 3 or 4 shows total.

In 1993 it was a two-horse race between Cadets and Star. I still would have given that title to Star, but Cadets were certainly no slouch.

In 1990 The Cadets were a solid top 3 or 4 from the opening of the season. The odd thing about 1990 was that all of the top 6 corps had major victories during the season. BD and Phantom started undefeated until mid-season, then the Cavaliers toppled both. Star started over Cadets on the east, but then the Cadets put in their ending and ultimately it was Cadets and Cavaliers in the top 2, with Star establishing themselves as the Brass monsters.

In 1987 it was a two-horse race between the Cadet (Garfield) and SCV. Cadets lost a few shows early, but quickly became the dominant corps from the east.

In 1985 the Cadets were top 2 most of the season if you look at the scores. SCV was the no. 1 seed if you will, but Cadets were top 2 all year and pulled off the victory in the end.

In 1984 the Cadets maybe lost 2 or 3 shows all year. One to Phantom, and 1 or 2 to BD. That's about it.

In 1983 they were the dominant corps out of the gate.

WHAT DOES THIS TELL US?

1. Typically the Cadets are in the top 3 or 4 out of the gate on their championship years.

2. They were more dominant in the 80s where their first 4 championships saw them come out of the gate top 2 in each of those years.

3. 1990 was an interesting year in which 6 corps looked to have potential championship seasons come the beginning of tour. Once the GE captions began to sparkle for the Cadets and Cavaliers that race was narrowed to 2.

4. In 1993 they were top 2 from the start, and in 1998 they were top 3 from the start

5. In 2000 they reminded us of the 1983/84 corps and came out roaring.