soccerguy315 Posted August 4, 2013 Share Posted August 4, 2013 Interesting point. I agree that the Music in Motion venture could likely not succeed 100% on its own: meaning, those corps could not financially sustain their operations plus MiM operations w/out also participating in DCI. Of course, I also think DCI could not succeed with the top 3rd of their organizations leaving while still competitively successful. This situation is def. symbiotic which is probably why events are happening as they. As a side-venture, I don't see anything wrong with it, even if some more die-hard traditionalist disapprove. Like I said, I'd love (no, as a fan I downright DARE) Boston, Madison, Blue Stars, Spirit of Atlanta, Crossmen, Troopers, Surf to forum their own side-collective and call themselves Tour of Favorites to raise their own profile/Champion/etc. How is it symbiotic? In what way is Boston benefiting from the TOC? Blue Knights? Troopers? etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCImonkey Posted August 4, 2013 Share Posted August 4, 2013 Just asking questions. This whole G7 thing is a crock, and everybody knows it. If they don't like DCI, here's the door. ....thus ending drum corps as we know it. Hmm glad you're not a business man. You don't have to like it, but you have to understand when they've got you by the ##LLS 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted August 4, 2013 Share Posted August 4, 2013 How is it symbiotic? In what way is Boston benefiting from the TOC? Blue Knights? Troopers? etc DCI would likely not be viable if their membership lost the current seven most successful corps, as well as the vast majority of its previous/current Champions. So DCI needs Blue Devils, Crown, Cadets, SCV, Phantom Regiment, Cavaliers, and Bluecoats to remain financially viable. Conversely, the Music in Motion people could not run their own circuit AND continue to run their drum corps organization(s). They need DCI to provide the bulk of performances + logistics of the tour. DCI needs its highest-achieving, top-drawing organizations to remain viable, and MiM corps need DCI to provide the logistics of a full summer tour. That's just the most obvious reasoning. Add in secondary type effects, such as "controversy" riling up fan base, which could trickle down to more funds for corps (like "YEAH! BAC doesn't support MiM so I'm going to spend money on their souvies & gas funds" or "lots of folks are railing on my favorite corps, Blue Devils, so I want to make sure they know they have my support via me buying souvies & contributing to gas funds"). Or people making sure they go to the smaller, non-ToC shows to support the corps opposing MiM (which potentially brings in more revenue to show hosts), etc. I'd love for nothing more than for everyone to just get along, but if people are going to branch off and do their own thing it seems obvious that it will likely be in such a way that will benefit BOTH sides of the table. I honestly don't know the financial specs on the ToC series of shows, but it seems possible that MiM finances the shows completely but reaps the profits w/out sharing with DCI (seems kinda fare). And again, NOTHING is seemingly stopping any other corps from forming their own side-collective & doing their own series of shows excluding the Top corps. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy. Posted August 4, 2013 Share Posted August 4, 2013 This is interesting and something I hadn't looked back at. Do they really? The closest a TOC show got to a local show was in Illinois, and the St. Louis show (the next night after DeKalb) had a great lineup. While I agree that the original proposal suggested differently, the current TOC hasn't interfered with local shows, has it? EDIT: I just noticed that the schedule this week has two schedule conflicts between the TOC series and DCI shows. Today, while the TOC are in Allentown, many of the O-15 are in Pittsburgh, and tomorrow there's Centerville vs Buffalo. But it's hard to make a suggestion that the TOC shows "draw fans" from other local shows; the distances between these cities are large, for sure. But if all the TOC were not in Buffalo, it would have been possible for DCI to book some of those in Centerville. While I suspect that Centerville's success is flat to their lineup, as ours is, it could be said that there might be some fans who decide to make the trip to Centerville to see those corps. This is a core flaw in the TOC mindset. If those seven were sent out to supplement the hand-full of Centervilles out there, they possibly draw more fans to existing shows in 6 other locations. The net draw to 6 shows in the last week before finals has got to be more than the net from asking everyone to get to Buffalo. To support your argument: Allentown. Pretty sure it sold out both nights even with the TOC show today. Though if I had to choose I'd go to the sunday show so I could see SCV/Cadets/BD and Crown instead of only getting to see two of 'em... but lets be real, if I lived there (or near there) I'd buy tickets for all three days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy. Posted August 4, 2013 Share Posted August 4, 2013 DCI would likely not be viable if their membership lost the current seven most successful corps, as well as the vast majority of its previous/current Champions. So DCI needs Blue Devils, Crown, Cadets, SCV, Phantom Regiment, Cavaliers, and Bluecoats to remain financially viable. Conversely, the Music in Motion people could not run their own circuit AND continue to run their drum corps organization(s). They need DCI to provide the bulk of performances + logistics of the tour. DCI needs its highest-achieving, top-drawing organizations to remain viable, and MiM corps need DCI to provide the logistics of a full summer tour. That's just the most obvious reasoning. Add in secondary type effects, such as "controversy" riling up fan base, which could trickle down to more funds for corps (like "YEAH! BAC doesn't support MiM so I'm going to spend money on their souvies & gas funds" or "lots of folks are railing on my favorite corps, Blue Devils, so I want to make sure they know they have my support via me buying souvies & contributing to gas funds"). Or people making sure they go to the smaller, non-ToC shows to support the corps opposing MiM (which potentially brings in more revenue to show hosts), etc. I'd love for nothing more than for everyone to just get along, but if people are going to branch off and do their own thing it seems obvious that it will likely be in such a way that will benefit BOTH sides of the table. I honestly don't know the financial specs on the ToC series of shows, but it seems possible that MiM finances the shows completely but reaps the profits w/out sharing with DCI (seems kinda fare). And again, NOTHING is seemingly stopping any other corps from forming their own side-collective & doing their own series of shows excluding the Top corps. thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnyboy Posted August 4, 2013 Share Posted August 4, 2013 The most recent spin on the Tour Of Champions moniker: These seven corps aren't necessarily the most successful corps, they aren't necessarily past champions of DCI, they don't really have to have the biggest budgets, shiniest horns or newest busses. Then are "champions of the activity." How priceless is that? A definition that can't be argued with data has been found. We are the TOC and G7 because we say we are. We have conference calls and we are unionized, and you can't play or be a member. Heck, we don't care how hi your scores goes or even if you win a medal some day, because hopefully by then we will have a lock on our own little circuit. You want to play with us? Come to an audition camp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 The most recent spin on the Tour Of Champions moniker: These seven corps aren't necessarily the most successful corps, they aren't necessarily past champions of DCI, they don't really have to have the biggest budgets, shiniest horns or newest busses. Then are "champions of the activity." Who's saying that?! Like, one poster in this thread? No one from ToC/MiM or DCI is spinning it that way. How priceless is that? A definition that can't be argued with data has been found. We are the TOC and G7 because we say we are. We have conference calls and we are unionized, and you can't play or be a member. Heck, we don't care how hi your scores goes or even if you win a medal some day, because hopefully by then we will have a lock on our own little circuit. You want to play with us? Come to an audition camp. Take away the ToC participants, and there is only one other DCI World Champion in the 40+ years of DCI competing (and one that hasn't won DCI in 25 years at that). Take away the ToC participants, and you take away every DCI Champion since 1992: or the past 15 DCI seasons' Champions; or the last 37/40 seasons of Champions! That is really significant! The ToC participants account for FORTY total DCI World Championships, plus one Div. 2/Open Class Championship. The entire rest of the World Class field outside of the ToC accounts for 2 DCI World Championships (the last one from 25 years ago), and a myriad of Div. 2 and 3 & Open Class Championships, the last wining Div. 2 in in 2006. Again, that is pretty significant! I'd also be curious to compare souvies revenue from ToC corps to the rest of the WC corps. Or the amount of people who audition for ToC corps vs the amount of people who audition for the rest of the WC corps. Or the amount of people in the stands Thursday night for the last seven groups vs the first seven, or the middle seven. I would bet those numbers are pretty significant as well. I'm not saying one group is better than another, but if you're going to try to play goofy word games and play around with loose facts & stats, I think it's important to talk about just what the Tournament of Champions/Music in Motion organizations represent to DCI as far as competition and consistent excellence. And again, I would LOVE to see Scouts, Boston Crusaders, Blue Stars, Crossmen, Spirit of Atlanta, Troopers, and Jersey Surf from a Tour of Favorites combine: better yet, schedule shows head-to-head with the Tour of Champions and lets see what the crowds support more (I suspect there's more than enough room for both organizations to be successful). But as soon as you try to marginalize the contributions to the activity of the corps involved, I think the argument turns to nonsense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCImonkey Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 Who's saying that?! Like, one poster in this thread? No one from ToC/MiM or DCI is spinning it that way. Take away the ToC participants, and there is only one other DCI World Champion in the 40+ years of DCI competing (and one that hasn't won DCI in 25 years at that). Take away the ToC participants, and you take away every DCI Champion since 1992: or the past 15 DCI seasons' Champions; or the last 37/40 seasons of Champions! That is really significant! The ToC participants account for FORTY total DCI World Championships, plus one Div. 2/Open Class Championship. The entire rest of the World Class field outside of the ToC accounts for 2 DCI World Championships (the last one from 25 years ago), and a myriad of Div. 2 and 3 & Open Class Championships, the last wining Div. 2 in in 2006. Again, that is pretty significant! I'd also be curious to compare souvies revenue from ToC corps to the rest of the WC corps. Or the amount of people who audition for ToC corps vs the amount of people who audition for the rest of the WC corps. Or the amount of people in the stands Thursday night for the last seven groups vs the first seven, or the middle seven. I would bet those numbers are pretty significant as well. I'm not saying one group is better than another, but if you're going to try to play goofy word games and play around with loose facts & stats, I think it's important to talk about just what the Tournament of Champions/Music in Motion organizations represent to DCI as far as competition and consistent excellence. And again, I would LOVE to see Scouts, Boston Crusaders, Blue Stars, Crossmen, Spirit of Atlanta, Troopers, and Jersey Surf from a Tour of Favorites combine: better yet, schedule shows head-to-head with the Tour of Champions and lets see what the crowds support more (I suspect there's more than enough room for both organizations to be successful). But as soon as you try to marginalize the contributions to the activity of the corps involved, I think the argument turns to nonsense Yup....but Oregon Crusaders won Open Class last year and they are now World Class....so just being Tony Reali here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soccerguy315 Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 DCI would likely not be viable if their membership lost the current seven most successful corps, as well as the vast majority of its previous/current Champions. So DCI needs Blue Devils, Crown, Cadets, SCV, Phantom Regiment, Cavaliers, and Bluecoats to remain financially viable. Conversely, the Music in Motion people could not run their own circuit AND continue to run their drum corps organization(s). They need DCI to provide the bulk of performances + logistics of the tour. DCI needs its highest-achieving, top-drawing organizations to remain viable, and MiM corps need DCI to provide the logistics of a full summer tour. That's just the most obvious reasoning. Add in secondary type effects, such as "controversy" riling up fan base, which could trickle down to more funds for corps (like "YEAH! BAC doesn't support MiM so I'm going to spend money on their souvies & gas funds" or "lots of folks are railing on my favorite corps, Blue Devils, so I want to make sure they know they have my support via me buying souvies & contributing to gas funds"). Or people making sure they go to the smaller, non-ToC shows to support the corps opposing MiM (which potentially brings in more revenue to show hosts), etc. I'd love for nothing more than for everyone to just get along, but if people are going to branch off and do their own thing it seems obvious that it will likely be in such a way that will benefit BOTH sides of the table. I honestly don't know the financial specs on the ToC series of shows, but it seems possible that MiM finances the shows completely but reaps the profits w/out sharing with DCI (seems kinda fare). And again, NOTHING is seemingly stopping any other corps from forming their own side-collective & doing their own series of shows excluding the Top corps. I agree with everything you wrote. So my question is, how is the current situation in 2013 a more symbiotic relationship than say, 2005? or 2000? or 2008? An unnecessary schism has been corps has been created, and IMO it will not benefit EITHER group... I would love to be wrong; I just don't think I am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 Yup....but Oregon Crusaders won Open Class last year and they are now World Class....so just being Tony Reali here. Good catch; I forgot about them Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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