The staff merrigoround

[palmettomello]

I think Spirit's drill and guard design has held them back these past few years. I feel like we've seen almost the same style shows since 2011. Would really love to see them take on a new direction for the next season in regards to program design. I do think, however, the musical selections have been stellar.

[Stu]

It was the intent of revamping the sheets, but not necessarily what came out after they were neutered. You're not understanding what I am saying. I completely agree with you that the caption is broken...I'm just trying to get you to understand how things REALLY are now. I'm not a fan of the revamped effect sheets at all. Well, they are certainly better than what we had, but not nearly as good or forward-thinking as they should be. I love the new Music Analysis, brass (though he should be in the box), percussion, and visual sheets. But I don't think the corps allowed the GE revamp to go far enough.

The problem with the Triad now is that you get credit for using any of the three legs, but you don't get advanced credit for using all three...let alone all three equally. That's what has to happen. The reason the GE revamp was hamstrung was because they couldn't agree on what the "emotional" leg of the triad constituted. If "entertainment" was rewarded too heavily, we'd loose all shows that weren't baby-throwing cheer-fests. That's why the whole "audience engagement" wording was added and "entertainment" and "entertainment value" was removed.

Now, you suggest that all shows be evaluated "irrespective of content". That is not now, nor has it ever been the intent of the effect judges. Content is, and always has been, a major facet of the caption. You also suggest that effect judges "not overly reward depth and complexity". I agree it shouldn't be overly rewarded, particularly if it isn't achieved, but it MUST be considered.

I think that we are agreeing way more than disagreeing. Corps today who only engage in the intellectual progressive portion of the GE 'triad' are being overly rewarded on just that leg without any requirement for them to produce much from the other two legs; and the Cecario GE sheets, which were supposed to fix that by placing equal GE footing on all three legs, was neutered which in turn allowed this one-legged rewarded system to prosper. So, allow me to get outside of the judging sheets for a moment because here is the conflict: If that is the case, solely focus on progressing music-education to both the students and the audience as well as the emphasis on the progression of the art form, then fine. However DCI apparently also wants an audience to fill 60,000 to 100,000 venues at their major shows; yet they want those same audience members to have a willingness pay big bucks to get 'educated' via intellectual progressive art shows instead of get 'entertained' by high quality raw entertainment; not gonna happen; never has happened; never will happen.

[perc2100]

Well they have what was the brass arranger for glassmen in 2011 if my memory serves me correctly.

This is correct: arranged for Glassmen from 08-11

[perc2100]

It was the intent of revamping the sheets, but not necessarily what came out after they were neutered. You're not understanding what I am saying. I completely agree with you that the caption is broken...I'm just trying to get you to understand how things REALLY are now. I'm not a fan of the revamped effect sheets at all. Well, they are certainly better than what we had, but not nearly as good or forward-thinking as they should be. I love the new Music Analysis, brass (though he should be in the box), percussion, and visual sheets. But I don't think the corps allowed the GE revamp to go far enough.

The problem with the Triad now is that you get credit for using any of the three legs, but you don't get advanced credit for using all three...let alone all three equally. That's what has to happen. The reason the GE revamp was hamstrung was because they couldn't agree on what the "emotional" leg of the triad constituted. If "entertainment" was rewarded too heavily, we'd loose all shows that weren't baby-throwing cheer-fests. That's why the whole "audience engagement" wording was added and "entertainment" and "entertainment value" was removed.

Now, you suggest that all shows be evaluated "irrespective of content". That is not now, nor has it ever been the intent of the effect judges. Content is, and always has been, a major facet of the caption. You also suggest that effect judges "not overly reward depth and complexity". I agree it shouldn't be overly rewarded, particularly if it isn't achieved, but it MUST be considered.

On the other hand, "audience engagement" is kind of purposefully broad. Not everything SHOULD result happy happy/joy joy stuff of emotional reaction. Sometimes a show might 'engage' the audience via other stimuli: anger, enlightenment, sorrow, etc. It's weird because it's kind of semantical, but for me there is a HUGE difference between "entertainment" and "engagement," and engagement seems far easier to quantify than entertainment. I don't really have any problems with the sheets, and I think that judges do give more credit for units who excel at all three parts of the triad. For example, I think SCV could not get any further than they did because parts of their design just didn't have the depth of Cadets, Blue Devils, or Crown. You can see that pretty uniformly across the recaps, not only with SCV's lowest caption being GE Music; also in almost every caption the rep side is lower than the performance side.

All of that aside, audience engagement is but one of 1/5 of design and 1/4 of performance GE sheets. Just as a percussion trophy isn't won or lost with an outstanding snare line & is instead evaluated as the sum of the line's parts, GE isn't currently, and never should be, won or lost based off of 'Audience Engagement' part of the sheets..

[Kamarag]

Glad you liked it! We seem to disagree on many things, so I'm not surprised that you disagree here.

Would it surprise you if I said I've only liked about three Cavaliers brass books in the last 30 years? And that this years was one of them? The other two were Bond and parts of the Billy Joel show.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Kamarag

[jjeffeory]

Would it surprise you if I said I've only liked about three Cavaliers brass books in the last 30 years? And that this years was one of them? The other two were Bond and parts of the Billy Joel show.

No!

...and that's okay. I could say that about quite a few corps recently and in the past.

[Stu]

To tie this judging stuff back into the topic of design/instructional staff merri-go-round... I tend to see the corps current staff merr-go-round being rampant and volatile because the judging 'philosophical' merrie-go-round is either slow as molasses in winter or at a dead stop. This creates a situation where corps are attempting to always seek out staff to 'please' a certain select few judges. Judging is mere opinion on what the sheets state; which means while the sheets may be objective on paper, opinion on implementing them is subjective. Currently in DCI there is a rather single-mindedness of the judges concerning their 'opinion' of what is good writing compared to what is bad writing (whether in the musical books or in visual); and this cannot be attributed to the sheets but on their own educational and musical philosophies/tastes influencing their read of the sheets. Some will say that is fine because we need consistency in judging; but I say hogwash! We need some semblance of various opinions. Why? Because everything is subjective opinion in this form of competition. Want to make things more stable in the world of staff and get rid of these overly skewed intellectual shows? Acquire half of the judges who 'know their stuff' via previous DCI involvement and/or like-minded musical education institutions; acquire the other half who 'know their stuff' via other forms of musical genres and different philosophical educational institutions. Then have DCI spread out those various philosophical judges throughout the entire tour schedule (keeping the Finals judges names secret until Finals week). It would be 'fair' because all corps would be treated equally; and it also be 'fair' because not one philosophical taste/bent would be rewarded over another. And in turn, corps will greatly slow down the ever increasing volatility of the staff merr-go-round to just please judges.

[Stu]

On the other hand, "audience engagement" is kind of purposefully broad. Not everything SHOULD result happy happy/joy joy stuff of emotional reaction. Sometimes a show might 'engage' the audience via other stimuli: anger, enlightenment, sorrow, etc. It's weird because it's kind of semantical, but for me there is a HUGE difference between "entertainment" and "engagement," and engagement seems far easier to quantify than entertainment. I don't really have any problems with the sheets, and I think that judges do give more credit for units who excel at all three parts of the triad. For example, I think SCV could not get any further than they did because parts of their design just didn't have the depth of Cadets, Blue Devils, or Crown. You can see that pretty uniformly across the recaps, not only with SCV's lowest caption being GE Music; also in almost every caption the rep side is lower than the performance side.

All of that aside, audience engagement is but one of 1/5 of design and 1/4 of performance GE sheets. Just as a percussion trophy isn't won or lost with an outstanding snare line & is instead evaluated as the sum of the line's parts, GE isn't currently, and never should be, won or lost based off of 'Audience Engagement' part of the sheets..

Nobody said GE should just reward Happy, Happy, Joy, Joy... great Ren and Stimpy song by the way. I think that most would certainly say that GE should reward all aspects of emotion. Where the rub lies is in the term Engagement. Can I get 'Engaged' while being required to become educated on the finer aspects of Dada breaking all conventional theory rules in context with the overall history of artistic philosophical movements? Certainly, I can get 'Engaged' with that; in a music history class. However do I want to get 'Engaged' with that by purchasing high priced tickets, and forking out lots of cash for travel, to attend what is being touted as Marching Music's Major League or The Summer Music Games (which both greatly imply that I am going to receive engagement via raw entertainment not intellectual education)? Nope!!! I go to a NCAA Football Bowl game to get 'Engaged' via raw entertainment; I go to a class called Psychology of Sport to get 'Engaged' in the intellectual aspects of sport. And DCI should wake up to the fact that way more people agree with me than they want to believe.

[GUARDLING]

Nobody said GE should just reward Happy, Happy, Joy, Joy... great Ren and Stimpy song by the way. I think that most would certainly say that GE should reward all aspects of emotion. Where the rub lies is in the term Engagement. Can I get 'Engaged' while being required to become educated on the finer aspects of Dada breaking all conventional theory rules in context with the overall history of artistic philosophical movements? Certainly, I can get 'Engaged' with that; in a music history class. However do I want to get 'Engaged' with that by purchasing high priced tickets, and forking out lots of cash for travel, to attend what is being touted as Marching Music's Major League or The Summer Music Games (which both greatly imply that I am going to receive engagement via raw entertainment not intellectual education)? Nope!!! I go to a NCAA Football Bowl game to get 'Engaged' via raw entertainment; I go to a class called Psychology of Sport to get 'Engaged' in the intellectual aspects of sport. And DCI should wake up to the fact that way more people agree with me than they want to believe.

are you talking about 1 corps or many? Am I going to be sorry I asked? :smile:/>

Edited August 12, 2013 by GUARDLING

[Stu]

are you talking about 1 corps or many? Am I going to be sorry I asked? :smile:/>

I am talking the whole sha-bang of 'content' reward of all corps; with the Devils as leading the way. I agree that the Devils constantly perform the snot out of their shows with incredible execution (ie the achievement boxes on the sheets) and this goes back all the way to 1975; but imo that is not solely why they have had staff stability in recent years. People tend to forget that, especially on the percussion side, the Devils went through some hiccups after axing Float and securing Johnson. Nevertheless, the Devils appear to have acquired in this day and age a unique staff which, as a whole, exhibits the ability to subtly guide the philosophical tendencies concerning interpretation of the 'Content' portion of the judging boxes within the sheets while also maxing out the achievement boxes; thus they have kept their jobs for a long. long time. And if they ever lose that subtle guide aspect of interpreting the 'Content' boxes, and 'Content' turns to being driven by another corps staff, then you will once again probably see some shake-ups in the Devils staff. Thus at this point in history most, not all but most of the other corps have this staff merrie-go-round which is driven by trying to follow the lead of the Devils, and subsequently trying to find design staff to please the judges in the name of winning, more than trying to find their own corps identities and their own musical/visual aesthetics.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Stu