Someone please explain e=mc^2 to me, because I really don't like/g

[Pete Freedman]

Not 'exactly'.

1989 Cadets Les Mis and 2013 SCV Les Mis both pretty close to the original source material; both rather accessible to the audience.

1985 Blue Devils First Circle pretty close to the original and accessible to the audience; 2013 Blue Knights First Circle arranged with modern arranging stylistic tapestry hints of motif to evoke intellectual stimulation.

That is what I am referring to as it applies to accessibility.

Ok, I just watched that again. It has one major issue; the repeated circles narration. I saw them live at the Rome, NY show and this narration was repeated three times. Once was plenty. On the Simis FN video, it plays once at the beginning and then a second time in the middle, only up to the birds nest part. So that was an improvement.

Now I think the designers should have given the the corps some more thoughtful circle concepts to express. For example, a circle of life with a baby in a baby carriage, a parent pushing it, and a senior with a cane. They are all going in a circle. Then, maybe a bunch of people in different ethnic outfits from around the world, all holding hands in a circle. The ouroboros is a circle, as is the labyrinth of the minataur (usually). I would love to see either of these done in drill!

Imagine if the whole labyrinth rotates as the hero stays on the 50! He moves forward, the labyrinth rotates counter-clockwise (moving him down the hallway to his left) then he backs up a few steps, the corps rotates again, then he moves in to the center to kill the minotaur.

The minotaur should appear in the pre-show, confusing everybody. Then when he (she?) appears in the labyrinth, everybody gets it and you get a big response.

I realize it's a bit ambitious, but it makes a fun fantasy drill.

Overall, the kids sold the program pretty well I thought. There were bits that didn't pop for me, but for their position it wasn't bad. As to First Circle, I thought it was by far the most accessible part of the show, once it gets loud. I guess there is a first verse that is quieter, and a bit murky, but that's really just the build up anyway to the big hit with the long curvy line drill. The time signature is complex: I think the timing of the relevant part is 6 beats to the first measure, then 5 to the second; so 12345612345 with the sudden jump fro 5 back to 1 being a rhythmic hook. Same as BD I would think. What's not to love?

[Stu]

Ok, I just watched that again. It has one major issue; the repeated circles narration. I saw them live at the Rome, NY show and this narration was repeated three times. Once was plenty. On the Simis FN video, it plays once at the beginning and then a second time in the middle, only up to the birds nest part. So that was an improvement.

Now I think the designers should have given the the corps some more thoughtful circle concepts to express. For example, a circle of life with a baby in a baby carriage, a parent pushing it, and a senior with a cane. They are all going in a circle. Then, maybe a bunch of people in different ethnic outfits from around the world, all holding hands in a circle. The ouroboros is a circle, as is the labyrinth of the minataur (usually). I would love to see either of these done in drill!

Imagine if the whole labyrinth rotates as the hero stays on the 50! He moves forward, the labyrinth rotates counter-clockwise (moving him down the hallway to his left) then he backs up a few steps, the corps rotates again, then he moves in to the center to kill the minotaur.

The minotaur should appear in the pre-show, confusing everybody. Then when he (she?) appears in the labyrinth, everybody gets it and you get a big response.

I realize it's a bit ambitious, but it makes a fun fantasy drill.

Overall, the kids sold the program pretty well I thought. There were bits that didn't pop for me, but for their position it wasn't bad. As to First Circle, I thought it was by far the most accessible part of the show, once it gets loud. I guess there is a first verse that is quieter, and a bit murky, but that's really just the build up anyway to the big hit with the long curvy line drill. The time signature is complex: I think the timing of the relevant part is 6 beats to the first measure, then 5 to the second; so 12345612345 with the sudden jump fro 5 back to 1 being a rhythmic hook. Same as BD I would think. What's not to love?

Funny thing about this posting of yours is that you have supported my entire position; apparently without even realizing it.

[Michael Boo]

Okay...I think, based on reading the past few hours of comments in this thread, that I now need to ask someone to please explain to me "e=mc²," because I'm now thoroughly confused about everything, including the meanings of the words, "is," "of," "the," and "and."

[Pete Freedman]

Funny thing about this posting of yours is that you have supported my entire position; apparently without even realizing it.

How so?

Please tell us how Blue Knight's First Circle is

stylistic tapestry hints of motif to evoke intellectual stimulation

that you feel is typical of the kind of thing that alienates drum corps fans and potential fans.

The tune before First Circle has a similar rhythm, but I'm reading First Circle starting at 10:13 on the Semis FN. The drum line is in a circle around the little stage, and begins leaving at that moment. Everything from there to the end is the most accessible the corps gets. I left out much of it last night; there are actually two buildups and two big moments, the first is the snake, the second is four rotating circles.

Is it the rhythm? That's in the original tune, and in any event is pretty much consistent with the entire show.

Is it the tambourines? Are they driving down the fan base?

Is it the slight dissonance here and there that is normal in this tune as the descending accompaniment 'passes by' the melody? (That's my interpretation anyway). Are the fans heading for the doors?

At the 11:00 mark exactly there's an interesting reference to what I think is a different tune, perhaps a callback to something earlier in the show. Are callbacks now too esoteric for 'real drum corps fans'?

Is it the fact that the previous tune blurs into this one without a distinct cut? Is that confusing the audience?

Can you be more specific, Stu?

[garfield]

How so?

Please tell us how Blue Knight's First Circle is

that you feel is typical of the kind of thing that alienates drum corps fans and potential fans.

The tune before First Circle has a similar rhythm, but I'm reading First Circle starting at 10:13 on the Semis FN. The drum line is in a circle around the little stage, and begins leaving at that moment. Everything from there to the end is the most accessible the corps gets. I left out much of it last night; there are actually two buildups and two big moments, the first is the snake, the second is four rotating circles.

Is it the rhythm? That's in the original tune, and in any event is pretty much consistent with the entire show.

Is it the tambourines? Are they driving down the fan base?

Is it the slight dissonance here and there that is normal in this tune as the descending accompaniment 'passes by' the melody? (That's my interpretation anyway). Are the fans heading for the doors?

At the 11:00 mark exactly there's an interesting reference to what I think is a different tune, perhaps a callback to something earlier in the show. Are callbacks now too esoteric for 'real drum corps fans'?

Is it the fact that the previous tune blurs into this one without a distinct cut? Is that confusing the audience?

Can you be more specific, Stu?

Ruthless may not be too strong a word to use in describing this post.

Gotta love the off-season.

:tongue:/>

[Pete Freedman]

Ruthless may not be too strong a word to use in describing this post.

Gotta love the off-season.

/>

Yes. Well, I do really want to know what parts of these shows may be alienating fans. There's a difference between whether people should be alienated by these shows and whether they do. Stu may be right about a segment of the audience and it's valuable to see specifics.

[corpsband]

Okay...I think, based on reading the past few hours of comments in this thread, that I now need to ask someone to please explain to me "e=mc²," because I'm now thoroughly confused about everything, including the meanings of the words, "is," "of," "the," and "and."

Yeah -- I'm gonna duck out of this thread too.

It's bravely going where no man has gone before :-)

[Stu]

How so?

Please tell us how Blue Knight's First Circle is

that you feel is typical of the kind of thing that alienates drum corps fans and potential fans.

The tune before First Circle has a similar rhythm, but I'm reading First Circle starting at 10:13 on the Semis FN. The drum line is in a circle around the little stage, and begins leaving at that moment. Everything from there to the end is the most accessible the corps gets. I left out much of it last night; there are actually two buildups and two big moments, the first is the snake, the second is four rotating circles.

Is it the rhythm? That's in the original tune, and in any event is pretty much consistent with the entire show.

Is it the tambourines? Are they driving down the fan base?

Is it the slight dissonance here and there that is normal in this tune as the descending accompaniment 'passes by' the melody? (That's my interpretation anyway). Are the fans heading for the doors?

At the 11:00 mark exactly there's an interesting reference to what I think is a different tune, perhaps a callback to something earlier in the show. Are callbacks now too esoteric for 'real drum corps fans'?

Is it the fact that the previous tune blurs into this one without a distinct cut? Is that confusing the audience?

Can you be more specific, Stu?

Listen to the original source material of First Circle; then compare it to both the BD 1985 and BK 2013 versions. I am not seeking exact transcriptions, and I know this is a visual as well as audible activity; in fact I enjoy the visual. But what I am seeking in this modern era is more honor given back to the original source material structure. That is why most enjoyed the SCV Les Mis show so much; not just for the great visual, but also for the music which stayed close to the original source material. What has happened in this new age of DCI show design is that the visual tapestry has become so overly weighted that the music has devolved into layered motifs here and there just to support the visual. Take out all the visual mumbo jumbo references you are injecting concerning the 2013 BK show and please tell me which music arranging style, as in 'music', best honors what Metheny desired in that original chart; '85 BD or '13 BK? Therein you will find the answer.

[Stu]

Yes. Well, I do really want to know what parts of these shows may be alienating fans. There's a difference between whether people should be alienated by these shows and whether they do. Stu may be right about a segment of the audience and it's valuable to see specifics.

Pete: To me, and by my observation of fans over the years, the following appears to be a concerning issue: If the visual is fantastic, but the music is not structured in a communicative manner with understandable phrasing and understandable melody, then the audience sets there befuddled. I am not talking about the few artistic minded in the stands who are enthralled with Performance Art, but about the overwhelming general audience sitting in the stands who are there for entertainment and have no desire to be presented with progressing the art form via performance art. Contrary to what current designers want, the public seems to want understandable music phrasing and melody along with great visual aspects; not designs that focus on just visual with the sound merely underscoring the visual aspects with layered motifs that, while they do push the artistic boundaries of music arranging, are audibly rather disjunctive. The specifics are in audience reaction. Take any show with great visual but disjunctive music and compare the crowd reaction to a show with ok visual but music which has understandable phrasing and understandable melody (Scouts Empire for example); therein is the basis for my position concerning the danger of alienating fans with this modern 'it is all about the visual' show design structure.

[fsubone]

That is why most enjoyed the SCV Les Mis show so much; not just for the great visual, but also for the music which stayed close to the original source material. \

Even though SCV spent the entire opener hacking up and shoving songs together? Last time I checked, On My Own and At the End of the Day don't just drift right between each other....

On another note, I liked Blue Knight's version of First Circle. Was probably better than Crossmen's version a couple of years ago.