Stu Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 So as one of the said editors, I thought I'd add a few things. First, equipment colors recordings. For example, in certain buildings, I'd apply certain specific equalizations on audio. I'd match the audio as closely as I could to "reality" as I perceived it, but there are always differences. Second, I haven't seen anyone complain about how corps who are smaller/quieter are mostly raised in volume to levels that make it comfortable between corps. No one notices this, but based on how recordings would come out, certain small corps would be annoyingly quiet, and others annoyingly loud - if you left it as is. The stereo separation, the solo mics, the editing... there's so much more manipulation than what is really noticed. The questions would be "is this a historical record of one night" or is it an "artistic product"? Well, if it's just a record, the product would suffer to a point where many would ask why it's done that way. But the real question should be, "why *shouldn't* DCI put out the best possible product?" The best answer to that is it's a competition - and in reality, that would cost sales. Take the other side to its logical conclusion -- if you should record it with no edits and no changes, do you have a set microphone brand? Do you have only two mics, or four, or twelve? Should you not edit the overall volumes even though it makes snare shots exceptionally dynamic? (See: Cavaliers 1992 CD; that one shot that goes to -0dB whereby the rest of the discs are all set to that *as* zero.) It's all an interesting debate, but it all comes down to putting the corps "in the best light". That's the best for DCI, the best for the corps, and that is the guiding principle. It will be for the foreseeable future. Even though DCI is competitive in nature, which I completely enjoy, I can observe the competition play itself out live in person, live in the Theater, or streamed live over the internet. The type of audio/video editing you are describing, which allows me to purchase something to enjoy for many years to come, is fine with me. This is because I value the audio/video production of the artistic performance as something different than merely a documentary type capturing of a single-night competitive event. Moreover, on my DVD’s, CD’s, MP3’s ect… I have no desire listen over and over to the poor sap from BD cracking that note during his solo, nor do I want to see that poor kid shatter his leg with Crown on Finals night, simply because those things are actually what occurred on the field during the single night of Finals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gearwonk Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 I can't make the message editor work properly, so I am responding to the above quote from drumcat. "Second, I haven't seen anyone complain about how corps who are smaller/quieter are mostly raised in volume to levels that make it comfortable between corps." "The stereo separation, the solo mics, the editing... there's so much more manipulation than what is really noticed." That's a whole 'nother topic for discussion. The recording process is inherently subjective, and that has a lot to do with why Ken Kobold's recording in the 70's sounded so great. Ken engineered recordings on the spot, controlling dynamics to make them comfortably listenable. When DCI started making digital recordings they didn't control dynamics but instead highlighted the extreme dynamics that digital made possible, but that only made the CDs difficult to listen to because the pit was twice as loud as the rest of the corps. It's much better now, of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Second, I haven't seen anyone complain about how corps who are smaller/quieter are mostly raised in volume to levels that make it comfortable between corps. Then you have not been around recently. People have complained frequently about fluctuating volume levels on Fan Network. And levels on recent CDs are so messed up that it is pointless to even bring up the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 I must admit to being impressed by the appearance of this eloquent turn of the phrase on this forum: "...that would just be insane schadenfreude..." And that really is the point. Perhaps a "real world" anecdote would add perspective. A while back, I heard Rita Moreno sing with a trio at a local caberet. She appeared for 3 nights, two sets per evening, all of them recorded. I attended "finals". At the performance in question , she began by saying, "I have a bit of a throat on this evening and may miss a note or two. It won't bother me. Don't let it bother you." She did have one little unintentional crack. When the recording was released, it wasn't there, and that is as it should be. It was an anomaly, not truly representative of Rita Moreno as an artist. Those of us who witnessed the actual event will just have to store her miss in the audio of memory. One wonders how many versions, revisions and edits exist of the Mona Lisa, Sunday in the Park, Finnegan's Wake, the Gospels of Matthew, War and Peace, and Saturday Night Live. If you were there, you witnessed the event. A recording will never be able to replicate that. Reverb, compression, ambience, fades, equalization, sampling rate and a host of other technical travesties must be visited on any other mass-consumed mechanical version. It's just a ghost of the actual happening, an impression, an "editorial", like any other historical document. It reflects someone's POV. And that, my learned colleagues, as Mr.Sondheim wrote, is the art of making art..."Putting it Together". As the master wordsmith Duke Ellington was known to say... "If it sounds good... it IS good." And that Mr. Sondheim is no slouch, either! Thanks, Frank :) Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 honestly given all of the hacking due to licensing, i stopped buying, so it means nothing to me Living in the US, this year the only hack/edit is to a few seconds of Boston. I get what you're saying, but writing that stuff off out-of-hand seems illogical. In past years it has been pretty awful, and I have been pretty vocal with my distaste of all of that. This year things went really smoothly though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 So as one of the said editors, I thought I'd add a few things. First, equipment colors recordings. For example, in certain buildings, I'd apply certain specific equalizations on audio. I'd match the audio as closely as I could to "reality" as I perceived it, but there are always differences. Second, I haven't seen anyone complain about how corps who are smaller/quieter are mostly raised in volume to levels that make it comfortable between corps. No one notices this, but based on how recordings would come out, certain small corps would be annoyingly quiet, and others annoyingly loud - if you left it as is. The stereo separation, the solo mics, the editing... there's so much more manipulation than what is really noticed. The questions would be "is this a historical record of one night" or is it an "artistic product"? Well, if it's just a record, the product would suffer to a point where many would ask why it's done that way. But the real question should be, "why *shouldn't* DCI put out the best possible product?" The best answer to that is it's a competition - and in reality, that would cost sales. Take the other side to its logical conclusion -- if you should record it with no edits and no changes, do you have a set microphone brand? Do you have only two mics, or four, or twelve? Should you not edit the overall volumes even though it makes snare shots exceptionally dynamic? (See: Cavaliers 1992 CD; that one shot that goes to -0dB whereby the rest of the discs are all set to that *as* zero.) It's all an interesting debate, but it all comes down to putting the corps "in the best light". That's the best for DCI, the best for the corps, and that is the guiding principle. It will be for the foreseeable future. I 100% agree with all of this stuff, and I'm appreciative of the efforts made to ensure that the products are the best audio & visual presentations possible. I agree that there are already so many edits already being done, as you explain (and it wouldn't surprise me if there is a plethora of other stuff done that you didn't mention), why not aim for putting the best product? I always thought of the CD's & DVDs/Blu-rays as being the best representation of THE SEASON, not necessarily one performance. With that in mind, all of the post-production stuff done is great, and with the intent of producing the best product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 (edited) As the master wordsmith Duke Ellington was known to say... "If it sounds good... it IS good." And that Mr. Sondheim is no slouch, either! Thanks, Frank :) Chuck Alas, we are to only dream about hearing some sweet arrangements of Ellington or Soundheim performed in DCI today instead of the current disjunctive hiccups driven by the philosophy, ‘it is all about the visual’ (a tribute to Guardling there). Edited January 22, 2014 by Stu 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quad Aces Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Alas, we are to only dream about hearing some sweet arrangements of Ellington or Soundheim performed in DCI today instead of the current disjunctive hiccups driven by the philosophy, it is all about the visual (a tribute to Guarding there)."Disjunctive hiccups" - love it! Well done, Stu!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Living in the US, this year the only hack/edit is to a few seconds of Boston. I get what you're saying, but writing that stuff off out-of-hand seems illogical. In past years it has been pretty awful, and I have been pretty vocal with my distaste of all of that. This year things went really smoothly though. it's on the Fan network if i want. i dont need more shelving littered with dvd's and cd's. if it happens enough, as in past years...why bother? maybe this past year was the one off and next year will be back to usual? not worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeN Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Just wondering out loud, and I'm really not trying to stir the pot ... too hard - If the current philosophy is to provide the best possible production, why stop halfway? Audio-wise, it would be fairly straightforward to use "studio" or standstill recordings made during Championship week to provide a professional-quality soundtrack to the video. Crowd noise could be added (or not added) as necessary to provide an ideal stadium quality experience for the movie. We're already kind of doing that with the video - inserting scenes from different performances as needed to create an "enhanced" product. Essentially, it would still be the corps putting on their shows, but it would be the best possible audio to accompany the best possible video in those productions. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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