charlie1223 Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 (edited) It is always the final choice by the youth to stay, go, or come back; but I remember a time in the not so distant past when the best interest of the youth was to cut them early and highly encourage them to go to a corps where they had a chance of actually performing for the summer. However, today is different. The overwhelming encouragement by the staff today is to not cut but place kids on tier 2 and tier 3; then to sweet talk them into coming back again, and again, and again, and again to their camps with the ‘possible’ hope of maybe moving to tier 1 with a contract by the final spring decision point. This system severely drains the kid’s resources via camp fees and transportation costs. And to me, that is a very self-centered view of the staff engaging in their own self-interest as opposed to the staff looking out for the best interest of the youth. I mean imagine if an instructor and administrator at an Ivy League institution did that to a student who was applying to be accepted at that institution; stringing the kid along for months and months, collecting high fees from the kid each month; then after many months, and a lot of expended resources from the kid given over to the institution from the youth, the kid was told sorry, nope, you did not make it in; try again next year. The school staff would be pummeled by the alumni!!!! On the other hand, if the staff of these corps which are stringing these kids along on with this tier system really, actually, and truly cared about the best interest of the youth, they would cut early; and highly encourage those youth to use their resources to go somewhere in which they have a higher chance at receiving what the kid really desires which is performance, tour, and educational opportunity with a DCI corps all summer long. So, yeah, I think stringing kids along, procuring their resources camp, after camp, after camp, then dumping them at a later date leaving them in a lurch unable to feasibly go to another corps is rather evil. If you actually understood the tier you system you would understand how contradictory that bolded statement is. Telling a kid is in tier 3 does not also come with the distinction that he has chance of making the corps. A 3 literally means your cut but at the same time a corps does open its doors to those that want to come back and continue their learning experience if they choose too at the next camp. For a 3, what BETTER learning experience is there than to learn from the instructors of the corps that they hope to one day join? Its certainly not a waste of resources!! Plus a corps values how much a student changes and improves between camps... probably more than the actual talent they come with from the beginning in some cases... The best interest of the staff is the best interest of the students that march the corps. Those that march the corps expect to be surrounded by the BEST and most committed students and they expect that staff will do whatever it takes to create that kind of environment for them since are paying thousands of dollars to participate in their organization. It's truly surprising that you cannot see how tied the interests of the staff and students actually are. And I already explained to you the numerous reasons why corps do not fill all their corps positions or straight out cut people after the first camp. Those are legitimate reasons. I was one of those strung along kids believe it or not. If I told you my story you would not even believe the irony of my situation. Nevertheless, I have never regretted or resented the decision of the staff or the fact that I was cut from a corps in January. I had enough drive to then go and march another corps that year and there were plenty of opportunities for those that actually had the will to march another corps. As a side note, while these are young adults and "kids", they are auditioning and paying for the opportunity to be in a world class professional ensemble and the massive competition and standards means that it will take a lot of money and commitment in order to be in this kind of ensemble. It's not evil to provide a service and ask that you pay money for the service in the same way that its not evil that the marching members expect to be surrounded by the best. If we followed your system this would not be possible and that's the real disservice to the members. Edited March 31, 2014 by charlie1223 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Do you know how many people would quit the corps if all spots in the corps were given out at the very first camp? You'd just be holding another audition anyway at the next camp mostly becuase these college and highscool kids don't REALLY understand the commitment they are getting into... and the time and money necessary to actually be in the BEST marching ensembles in the world. I did not say ‘by first camp’; but by the end of second camp for most and by third camp for all; yeah a top level WC corps staff should be skilled enough to evaluate the ability and character of those auditioning during that time period. And I give youth, mostly the older university age youth who audition for top level WC corps, way more maturity credit than you. Why? Because they already know the huge commitment it takes to maintain their grades and keep their financial responsibility to their universities. Moreover, are you really saying that the majority of returning vets for Crown, BD, SCV, Regiment, Cadets, et al would ‘quit’ if highly trained and highly skilled performers were secured and contracted to fill vacated spots in a time frame time which allows those given a tier 2 or tier 3 ratings to use their resources to go audition for and march with another corps? Sorry, I’m not buyin’ that piece of swamp land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie1223 Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 (edited) I did not say ‘by first camp’; but by the end of second camp for most and by third camp for all; yeah a top level WC corps staff should be skilled enough to evaluate the ability and character of those auditioning during that time period. And I give youth, mostly the older university age youth who audition for top level WC corps, way more maturity credit than you. Why? Because they already know the huge commitment it takes to maintain their grades and keep their financial responsibility to their universities. Moreover, are you really saying that the majority of returning vets for Crown, BD, SCV, Regiment, Cadets, et al would ‘quit’ if highly trained and highly skilled performers were secured and contracted to fill vacated spots in a time frame time which allows those given a tier 2 or tier 3 ratings to use their resources to go audition for and march with another corps? Sorry, I’m not buyin’ that piece of swamp land. You would be surprised how many corps members do NOT have their poop in a group so to speak... It's just not a reality that all these highly talented musicians fully understand the breadth of the monetary and time commitment necessary. Guardling even mentioned people quiting during just a few days of Pre-Tour after all the time and money they put into the off season. I also know of many instances like this, especially during the audition camp season, and even some still in the middle of the summer! It's just a reality of the activity. Also, it is not always in terms of time needed to evaluate growth and change. Experience says that more talented people usually come out of the wood work after the first audition camp. The time it takes to evaluate new auditionees against "older" auditionees is the thing corps struggle with most. They do use videos as a valuable tool in saving, especially international students, the time and money before they come to a camp. However, things happen that can't always make this fool proof. And if attendence at camps is not consistent between auditonees that makes the call even harder. Returning Vets won't quit if the audition process was shortened, they would quit (and have for less) if the audition process did not allow a fully vetted process of who joins the ranks. Again, see the above reason as to why these processes are often lengthy. Also, as someone given a tier 2 rating... I had no problem using my resources to go audition for another corps. Many staff members are helpful and being one of the last members cut from a corps comes with some advantages... The staff member from the corps I was cut from actually made a personal recommendation to the caption head of another corps (what more could they reasonable do?) and my time and experience at the camps was taken into account during the audition process at this new corps. How evil... they clearly they didn't have my best interest at heart... Edited March 31, 2014 by charlie1223 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 If you actually understood the tier you system you would understand how contradictory that bolded statement is. Telling a kid is in tier 3 does not also come with the distinction that he has chance of making the corps. A 3 literally means your cut but at the same time a corps does open its doors to those that want to come back and continue their learning experience if they choose too at the next camp. For a 3, what BETTER learning experience is there than to be learn from the instructors of the corps that they hope to one day join? Its certainly not a waste of resources!! Plus a corps values how much a student changes and improves between camps... probably more than the actual talent they come with from the beginning in some cases... The best interest of the staff is the best interest of the students that march the corps. Those that march the corps expect to be surrounded by the BEST and most committed students and they expect that staff will do whatever it takes to create that kind of environment for them since are paying thousands of dollars to participate in their organization. It's truly surprising that you cannot see how tied the interests of the staff and students actually are. And I already explained to you the numerous reasons why corps do not fill all their corps positions or straight out cut people after the first camp. Those are legitimate reasons. I was one of those strung along kids believe it or not. If I told you my story you would not even believe the irony of my situation. Nevertheless, I have never regretted or resented the decision of the staff or the fact that I was cut from a corps in January. I had enough drive to then go and march another corps that year and there were plenty of opportunities for those that actually had the will to march another corps. As a side note, while these are young adults and "kids", they are auditioning and paying for the opportunity to be in a world class professional ensemble and the massive competition and standards means that it will take a lot of money and commitment in order to be in this kind of ensemble. It's not evil to provide a service and ask that you pay money for the service in the same way that its not evil that the marching members expect to be surrounded by the best. If we followed your system this would not be possible and that's the real disservice to the members. With respect, technical ‘cuts’ are no longer actually a part of corps audition process. Tier 2 and Tier 3 kids are, in most circumstances, highly encouraged to come back for camps again and again and again to receive ‘our fine instruction’ instead being cut and then highly encouraged to audition for another corps in which the kid can become an active member. Most tier 3 kids either come back for ‘the great instructional process’ they are promised then peter-out as they exhaust their resources, or they stay home because they are let down by being placed on tier 3 status without much encouragement to go to this other corps or that other corps. Tier 2 kids either peter-out through resource exhaustion in the same manner or a select few actually do make it to tier 1 with either a performance contract or become touring alternates. And again with respect here; to think that stringing kids along with the attitude of: 'Do not go somewhere else where you will actually march for the summer; just stay with us; just come to our corps camps and you engage with our best of the best youth. Because we provide you with such better education services at our camps than all other corps can provide for you while you perform during the summer’, is nothing more than egotistical narcissism in its highest form. I hate the term Back in the Day; but not long ago cuts were actually made, and made early. The majority of staff at that time, not all but most, in any given corps actually consulted with those cut to encourage them to go audition for this corps or that corps because the staff was truly looking out for the best interest of the kid and not the self-interest of their own corps; and they respected the experience and education kids would receive in other corps as being just as valuable as their own corps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 You would be surprised how many corps members do NOT have their poop in a group so to speak... a) That is not the type of personal character you want in a corps member; and b) Getting cut early because you do not have your poop in a group would actually be a valuable life-lesson to learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Returning Vets won't quit if the audition process was shortened, they would quit (and have for less) if the audition process did not allow a fully vetted process of who joins the ranks. Again, see the above reason as to why these processes are often lengthy. A qualified staff can weed out the weak and can identify high talent and high character of those auditioning, not perfectly mind you, but can do so at a very high percentage rate in just a few months. It does not take until April, May, or June to complete that process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Also, as someone given a tier 2 rating... I had no problem using my resources to go audition for another corps. Many staff members are helpful and being one of the last members cut from a corps comes with some advantages... The staff member from the corps I was cut from actually made a personal recommendation to the caption head of another corps (what more could they reasonable do?) and my time and experience at the camps was taken into account during the audition process at this new corps. How evil... they clearly they didn't have my best interest at heart... You indicated that you were one of the last in tier 2 let go which indicates you went deep into the camp season. While one caption head talked to another, which is noble, were the dues and fees for the secondary corps on par with the first Corps? Did the second corps give you a huge break on dues and fees because you came in rather late, or did you still have to pay nearly ‘full’ dues and ‘full’ fees to the second corps? Did the first corps give you back any reimbursements like a university would if you left prior to the drop date? The reason why I ask those questions is because most kids and parents cannot accomplish that sort of financial feat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fsubone Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 With respect, technical ‘cuts’ are no longer actually a part of corps audition process. Tier 2 and Tier 3 kids are, in most circumstances, highly encouraged to come back for camps again and again and again to receive ‘our fine instruction’ instead being cut and then highly encouraged to audition for another corps in which the kid can become an active member. Most still cut kids outright. usually Tier 2 or 3 stuff is given out at the end of the first of second camp. Tier 3 kids are thanked for their time, and given info of other corps they can audition for. Usually Tier 2 kids are those that got call-backs from the first audition camp, and know their status (member, alternate, cut) at the end of the second camp. That is too bad if there are groups out there that string kids along, but I've never seen it done in any group I've been associated with or observed. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Most still cut kids outright. usually Tier 2 or 3 stuff is given out at the end of the first of second camp. Tier 3 kids are thanked for their time, and given info of other corps they can audition for. Usually Tier 2 kids are those that got call-backs from the first audition camp, and know their status (member, alternate, cut) at the end of the second camp. That is too bad if there are groups out there that string kids along, but I've never seen it done in any group I've been associated with or observed. Out of respect I will not tarnish the names of corps who have 'tended' to string kids along; but I will say that I no longer recommend the most offending of those corps to any of my students. And while this is only based on personal experience, and I have had some students make various top level corps, my students who did not make a top 12 contending corps were always on tier 2; and while a token mention was always given to them by the staff in January or February concerning them possibly going elsewhere, they were always ‘highly’ encouraged to just come back to the next camp and receive more training. The spring camps were thus placed in the context of being educational training for future involvement with only their corps as opposed to being an audition process for the upcoming summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie1223 Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 With respect, technical ‘cuts’ are no longer actually a part of corps audition process. Tier 2 and Tier 3 kids are, in most circumstances, highly encouraged to come back for camps again and again and again to receive ‘our fine instruction’ instead being cut and then highly encouraged to audition for another corps in which the kid can become an active member. Most tier 3 kids either come back for ‘the great instructional process’ they are promised then peter-out as they exhaust their resources, or they stay home because they are let down by being placed on tier 3 status without much encouragement to go to this other corps or that other corps. Tier 2 kids either peter-out through resource exhaustion in the same manner or a select few actually do make it to tier 1 with either a performance contract or become touring alternates. And again with respect here; to think that stringing kids along with the attitude of: 'Do not go somewhere else where you will actually march for the summer; just stay with us; just come to our corps camps and you engage with our best of the best youth. Because we provide you with such better education services at our camps than all other corps can provide for you while you perform during the summer’, is nothing more than egotistical narcissism in its highest form. I hate the term Back in the Day; but not long ago cuts were actually made, and made early. The majority of staff at that time, not all but most, in any given corps actually consulted with those cut to encourage them to go audition for this corps or that corps because the staff was truly looking out for the best interest of the kid and not the self-interest of their own corps; and they respected the experience and education kids would receive in other corps as being just as valuable as their own corps. Your characterization of staff members is absolutely ridiculous. Have you actually gone to a camp recently and seen how the staff members act? Have you, I am curious, been in the room when a staff member gives their one on one with students? have you even given the audition yourself? Do you ACTUALLY think that stringing along kids JUST for their money is in the best interest of the staff members?! I mean, WOW. Let me explain something bluntly. Having kids that are not good enough to be in the corps at camps that extend past the audition camps is terrible. A staff member is trying to get his section stronger, learning music, working on bonding with the group and brainwashing kids into forking over their money and worrying about their egos is literally the last thing on that list. It's not even a blip on the radar. It's immaterial for these professionals. Do you want to know what's in the best interest in the STAFF? Getting the good kids to come in early, stay for the long hall, and snake out those that don't make the cut as quickly as possible. Belabored audition processes are trying for both staff and student. Remember their interests are the same. In the percussion section nothing is worse when you don't have enough equipment for all the people that are auditioning. Switching instruments around so everyone gets a chance, everyone being at drastically different levels of talent, is a VERY difficult teaching environment. The longer that that kind of environment persists the worse the experience is for the staff and for ALL the members. And somehow you think the corps staff are so egotistical as to bring upon themselves and their group this distress is a logical conclusion??? The real world goes beyond your wild depraved visions of staff members. Prolonged audition experiences are hardly a planned consequence and frankly they hardly happen often enough for them to be an issue. I explained the reasons why auditions are prolonged. Actual REASONS why they are prolonged but I guesss they are falling deaf ears? Is this an echo chamber? you wrote: The majority of staff at that time, not all but most, in any given corps actually consulted with those cut to encourage them to go audition for this corps or that corps because the staff was truly looking out for the best interest of the kid and not the self-interest of their own corps; and they respected the experience and education kids would receive in other corps as being just as valuable as their own corps. Stu, where do you get this stuff? Seriously. The world is truly a cruel and backwards place in your mind. How miserable you must feel! I just want you to know that modern staff members DO encourage kids to audition to march other corps. I was encouraged by the staff to march another corps. I was given a recommendation to march another by the staff. That staff respected the experience and education I would receive at the other corps. And there was not even an indication that I would be returning back to audition for the corps I was cut from! They did what they did because they respected my interest. My personal antidote at the very least proves that your archaic vision of corps staff is wrong. I don't know your experience... but wherever you've gotten this idea of staff egos trumping any rational thought is beyond me... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts