Im sorry DCI, you need to fix the scoring again

[ContraFart]

This is the first time you've made this important distinction, and the first time your argument has really held any water. Assuming fast = hard (the prevailing thought around here), you can maybe make your argument. However, fast is not necessarily hard. Especially if you are playing fast notes. Fast drill with sustains...that's hard (physically).

The Blue Devils do a good amount of fast/hard, but demonstrate an even greater amount of mental demand...far more than any other corps (I think Crown is the closest). Whiplash drill may be physically demanding, but it's not at all hard mentally. You generally only have one dress responsibility, and the goal is to keep your interval from the guy in front of you. That's not me just talking either, that's directly from Zingali and Sylvester (marched under them both).

Devils to a tremendous amount of mentally demanding drill (very often while physically demanding...like the end of this year's show). Form compression/expansion/rotations are tremendously difficult, particularly when you employ two or all three of those elements at once. Blind and double-blind pass throughs? Crazy hard, at any speed.

And that's all before we even broach the fact that "hard" does not necessarily mean "good". And there's a whole lot of "hard for hard's sake" and "hard but crappy" in DCI.

I disagree with the argument that they do a "good amount" fast/hard drill. That is a relative term and while that element exists (I will even admit that it exists far more in this year's show than in previous years), the scale compared to the next 5 or 6 corps is relatively small.

The other corps also integrate elements such as expanding intervals and blind and double blind pass throughs while connecting those elements within the whiplash drill. BD will display an element, restage, then present another element. I think having a more connective tissue between elements can be considered as mentally demanding as what you perceive BDs demand may be. Also in the context of audience appeal should not a physical feat create a more visceral audience reaction than a cerebral one?

Expanding on my previous analogy, BD is like an extraordinary actor who does a little bit of dancing, yet beats extraordinary dancers in a dancing competition. BDs performance might be smarter and even better....but its not dancing.

[Kamarag]

Also in the context of audience appeal should not a physical feat create a more visceral audience reaction than a cerebral one?

Not according to the sheets. Those two elements are essentially equal. Additionally, you're forgetting that variety is an essential bullet on the sheets. The Blue Devils display a wider variety of skills than any other corps. Heck, that's what was the key to last year's Crown victory...the finally figured that out after several years of beating the audience over the head with two or three skills repeatedly.

The words "demand" and "difficulty" were removed many years ago. They are now simply elements of content and repertoire now. Two of many considered elements.

[ContraFart]

But since its according to the sheets, you are making the original argument in this thread for me.

[jjeffeory]

I think the system works for those who want to understand it and will never work for those who dont want to either get it or understand it. That has happened in every judging system we have ever had or will have.

I dont think it's that hard to get that even if there were 1000 points to work with , perfect scores never mean perfect. I think where the problem comes in is there are a few who just dont get that first numbers are always driven up from bottom to top. even last night ,

The system "works", but it could work "better" for "more people" if it was revamped.

To me, box integrity (conforming to the sheets) should be most important, then ranking; all I hear here is RANK then RATE. I guess it's more important to let the highest scoring corps in each caption know how much better they are to the field than to let all corps know where they are in relation to the sheets. If we went to more decimals or something, then maybe we could do both AND avoid those terrible ties that so many don't like. I don't have a problem with them.

[jjeffeory]

I completely disagree with you. First of a paradigm can evolve without changing as long as the basic premise of the paradigm remains. The 4 elements I laid out (playing, drumming, marching and spinning) are certainly different than the 1930s, but the basic premise is still there.

Since 2008 BD has not used drill as connection between phrases up to a point that sections are connected by the kids just running from set to another. Also they do march and play simultaneously very often. If I did a tick tock since 2008,I would guess that 2/3 of the playing by the hornline would be stand still.

If BD can march and play well in any capacity as you say, then why have they not done it in the past 8 years? I would agree the elements they do display are done very well, but other corps don't do 13 minutes of box rotations. As I said before the visual complexity is created by the drill, where as in BDs complexity the drill is an afterthought.

The best way I can describe it is that BD is a top notch actor winning a dancing competition. I just think the dancers should be winning instead.

They all know exactly what you mean, but that way is what is winning and they will defend it to the end of time.

[Kamarag]

But since its according to the sheets, you are making the original argument in this thread for me.

No, you argued that they shouldn't score where they do because it's not "hard enough". Look, I've said this before, but it bears repeating...

The Blue Devils have won 16 championships over five decades, and under who the hell knows how many judging systems. No corps conforms to the current criteria better than they do. You can change the system to reward anything you want: speed, difficulty, whatever. But make no mistake, if you changed the system to reward baby-throwing, the Blue Devils would have you throwing your baby farther, faster, and with more accuracy, artistry, and panache than any other corps.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

[The Dude]

Ok, I'll repeat. Did you watch the drill????? They are changing places in a box in the trumpets while jazz running at a high tempo. INTRICACY. Not everyone has to make it a large spread form to move. I'm sure you missed alot due to not understanding detailed drill. They move and rotate a circle and float it at the same time that is stupid difficult to pull off.......Pass through moves everywhere get into the decade of 2010. We are past company fronts and high mark time. Yes, it is not dancing, the members are taught to move gracefully like a dancer not marching clunky and bouncy. Their style is based on dance which is why they are incredibly fluid, controlled, relaxed looking, and smooth. The drill is designed to be compact making it even more precise. If someone misses a spot they get hurt. The days of 4 and 6 step intervals all the time are not there. They did the large shapes you speak of already, innovators change what they do and take a chance. Their show flows incredibly well giving them no need to stop and count off. That's becoming old school. I challenge you to tap the tempo in the faster parts on a met and let me know how fast they go.

In the next life I see a Blue Devil in you due to the adamant way you insist they aren't good. I guess next time you can have a trophy too so you feel better. Bottom line, if it looks hard you aren't doing it well. Great quarterbacks make that long throw look easy, great musicians make those incredible fast lines seem easy. Low achievement = looking out of control. According to your evaluation the greats at anything were given "easy" material because it doesn't look hard.

The Blue Devils are hauling for a long time with....wait for it......No real halts to catch a breath and count off. I guess a continuous 11 minutes is easy. Or is everyone else so out of control and out of shape they have to halt?

I guess next trip I'll make sure you get a trophy too so you won't have to downplay what the other team did as well as grade your papers with blue ink and a smiley face. I'll front you the cash for glasses so you may see the details of their drill that isn't spread over the field because that's been done already.

If you don't like it.....get better. The Cadets are good at it, the cavies were, crown did........

Next year I'll make sure they have a good pause so it looks hard enough for you. This year maybe the members were in shape enough they didn't need it. Bad performance looks hard because it isn't controlled.

It's stupid that because someone is good people trash them. JUST GET BETTER and you to will have success instead of whining about it do something about it. It's like saying my house is dirty and I hate it but not working to fix it.

Next....

Oh yea, I'd like a video of you moving anywhere near that fast once you get those glasses to see the crazy details of their drill. You can reference their 08 show too. Super intricate harmonically and visually like this year.

Edited August 10, 2014 by The Dude

[burgerbob]

Like the Dude said, looks easy=/=is easy, and the other way around. All those snakey curvelinear forms? So difficult. The trumpets coming forward at the start in a circle while rotating and playing? Impossibly difficult.

[ContraFart]

No, you argued that they shouldn't score where they do because it's not "hard enough". Look, I've said this before, but it bears repeating...

The Blue Devils have won 16 championships over five decades, and under who the hell knows how many judging systems. No corps conforms to the current criteria better than they do. You can change the system to reward anything you want: speed, difficulty, whatever. But make no mistake, if you changed the system to reward baby-throwing, the Blue Devils would have you throwing your baby farther, faster, and with more accuracy, artistry, and panache than any other corps.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

But wouldn't the average drum corps fan want the "game" based on baby throwing?

[jmc5682]

I am fine with changing the scoring system. I do not think it is broken, but as long as the changes are made in time for all the corps to incorporate the new requirements into the design of their programs it would not be a big deal.

Do I think changing the judging system will negatively impact BD or other top corps? Nope. I am only going to address BD, as people on DCP seem to be most upset with them receiving the highest score ever at Finals.

First I would point out that since drum corps is a subjectively judged activity, and there are different judges each year at Final, Comparing the winning score from Finals this year to the winning Final score in 2002 is an unfair comparison. A better representation IMO is the spread between corps to determine how great and dominate a corps is any given year.

BD has been near or at the top from 1975 through 2014. There have been countless changes to the scoring system during the past 4 decades. BD has shown they are able to adapt quickly to any judging changes considering they have not been out of the top 5 since 1975.