Blue Devils B Placement Friday Night?

[luv4corps]

And of course, that gets right to the question: is DCI treating World Class corps differently from Open Class corps as requires show length requirements?

I'm surprised this subject wasn't raised during the previous three years when Open Class corps at Prelims were being scored on World Class sheets, but as often as was the case this year, had short shows. Someone should do the math to work out where O.C. corps with short shows for 2011-2014 really would have placed if this rule was enforced.

I am very surprised by this too. If a corps is too long getting onto the field, there is a penalty (OC San Antonio 2012). Seems that show length ought to be part of the same time allotment/restriction as entering/exiting the field. I actually thought it was.

Or maybe it is that you can be short, but not long?

Edited August 16, 2014 by luv4corps

[randyb]

Interesting that you think 13-18 were not as strong this year when the majority all feel that this was one of the strongest years for that grouping...

I thought this was an interesting year all around. BDB had a great show this year, and most of the corps in the 13-18 range had weaker than normal shows. This really shouldn't be any surprise, given how great BDB and VC have been over the last decade. Back when semis had top 17, Vanguard Cadets placed 17th in 2000, becoming the first time an A and B corps had both made semis(unless I have missed it happening before, if so I apologize to that organization). BDB, if I am not mistaken, now has the highest placement for a feeder cops. Congrats to BDB.

There have always been DII/Open Class corps that have been better than DI/World Class corps. If you remember, Pioneer used to be a DII corps that beat quite a few DI corps over the years, making semi-finals as a DII corps, when it was still only top 17.

I think there were several factors this year leading up to the results that occurred. In recent years, it has seemed like the 10-16 place corps have all been stellar, with solid shows. The fight for the last 2 finals spots have been extremely interesting. However this year the top 12 were set well in advance. There wasn't a show below 12th that would have deserved to make finals. There should have been close to a 2 point gap between 12th and 13th. However with a weird 1 point penalty, it made the competition look much closer than it really was.

13th-18th place corps this year had nice shows, but nowhere near the level of years past. Colts were definitely the best of this group, but even they had strong weaknesses this year. I did think after an extremely slow start, that Spirit probably still should have ended up 14th, with BDB getting 15th. I think with the strong program BDB had this year, along with the weakened 13-17 shows from normal, really changed the game. I am sure it did sting for some of the corps that dropped a spot or two. But I really thought the judges got it right with BDB and Vanguard Cadets. They are not your average feeder/Open Class corps. And that whole group of BDB, SCVC, Academy, Troopers, Pacific Crest, and Oregon Crusaders, were very close to being on the same level, with each corps having some really strong areas, but also having some weak areas as well.

Hopefully this will light a fire under some designers, staff, and members of all of these corps, and make an even more exciting 2015 season. Congrats to BDB for their best placement ever, and best of luck in the future. Who knows, maybe in the next couple of years there will be 5 Blue corps making finals.

[MisterA]

Interesting that you think 13-18 were not as strong this year when the majority all feel that this was one of the strongest years for that grouping...

I think that most people felt that the corps in this grouping were closer in quality of shows to each other, not necessarily stronger than other years. Most years, the corps in 13, 14, and sometimes 15 people are commenting on how in other years they may have made finals with that show. Even the Colts who had the 13th best show this year, I don't see a top 12 show from the last 20 years that they would have come close to beating to make finals. And I haven't heard anyone else commenting on it either. Just curious, which shows in the 13-17 grouping do you see that would have beat a 12th place corps in the last 2 decades? And most years, the 13-15 corps are closer in performance level to the top 12. This year none of these corps had a shot at making top 12, and shouldn't have even been within 2 points of Crossmen. And while Crossmen had a great show this year, I don't think it is even one of the best 12th place shows of the last decade. I do think the judges gave people a false sense of excitement this season, with all scoring storylines of the year. BDA and BDB with their highest scores ever. Coats with their highest placement and score ever. The finals week place swaps, Coats and Cadets, PR and BK, Colts and Troopers, BDB over 4 corps you wouldn't expect. Spirit dropped drastically between Thursday and Friday. Definitely an interesting year, but definitely a drop in the show designs and performance level in the 13-18 range this year.

[N.E. Brigand]

And while Crossmen had a great show this year, I don't think it is even one of the best 12th place shows of the last decade.

The Finals judges may have been explicitly disagreeing with that position, since they were perfectly free to score Crossmen, the first performance of the evening, lower than they did. It is normal for the 12th-place show (and often the 11th- and 10th-place shows, too) to drop in score between Semifinals and Finals. That didn't happen: Crossmen got the best 12th-place score ever.

[flammaster]

The Finals judges may have been explicitly disagreeing with that position, since they were perfectly free to score Crossmen, the first performance of the evening, lower than they did. It is normal for the 12th-place show (and often the 11th- and 10th-place shows, too) to drop in score between Semifinals and Finals. That didn't happen: Crossmen got the best 12th-place score ever.

Yea all the scores go down up until the top corps for finals. I remember it used to be only the top two or three go up. It could be more now I haven't compared scores.

[2muchcoffeeman]

definitely a drop in the show designs and performance level in the 13-18 range this year.

Boy, I don't know what shows you were watching this year. Anyone who saw Troopers 2014 and concluded their program and performance was inferior to 2013 simply didn't pay attention. That's what made this year particularly frustrating for them: they upped their game from 2013 -- and were told by the judges they were worse.

Beyond Troop, you had Colts, whose show this year was a significant step up from 2013. Same for Academy and OC.

Edited August 16, 2014 by 2muchcoffeeman

[Spontaneity]

Coming from a BDB member, I'll tell you our story.
At the start of the season we were really overconfident, we thought we were going to win a ring easily. Our music and drill design was just through the roof. We didn't try we didn't care and we got absolutely destroyed early season. That's where all the five point gaps come from. Additionally those first four shows we didn't have the last 4 minutes of our show done. We thought "Oh we're only a half point behind scvc and we still have 4 minutes of our show." So we didn't try for another week, and in that week we added 14 sets of choreography to our show and learned the last 4 minutes.

Then the next set of shows came, we lost every single show again. We as members felt cheated and demolished. We felt as if the judges had scored us unfairly and screwed us over. The very next practice after those sets of shows our visual staff sat us down. They explained we weren't cheated, we lost fair and square. There was nobody to blame except ourselves. We were a talented group of individuals, just unbelievably lazy. That's when we started to really perform our show.
Within the next week we had a brass staff member, Rob Stein, come join us. He was on staff during 2011 and 2012, and took 2013 off. He was also a staff member for cadets during the 2012 season. Now why does this matter? To put this in perspective, if any of you remember BDB was getting thrown around during the 2012 season, meaning we were getting our ##### handed to us by SCVC and OC. SCVC was 3 pointing us and OC was 5 pointing us. Within 2 weeks, we had jumped ahead of SCVC due to a training program that Rob Stein started when he joined us on tour, which was only 2 weeks long. This season he joined us a month before finals. We started that training program and within 2 days had finally realized what we were capable of. We went through this training program for a whole month, now if two weeks of this could jump a three point gap, imagine what a whole month did.
Rob didn't just help the brass either, he was put on box duty and was constantly critiquing our work etiquette, not just the brass but every section from percussion to color guard. He made us realize that in order for us to win, every section needed to be on top of their game. We went from rehearsing like a bunch of high school kids from various programs to one cohesive corps that understood their responsibilities.
After a week of Rob's help and his training program, we had our next set of shows. The results of our hard work came through, we were now one pointing SCVC and had jumped the 1.5 gap that once separated us.
You can see where this trend is going, eventually the five point gap at the beginning of the season that separated us and corps like PC and Mandarins shrunk, and we finally met the demand of our show. Going into this season we had an incredibly designed show, but we as a corps were nowhere near even half of our potential. It took us six shows to realize that this season was going to be decided how hard we worked, and wouldn't be won for us. We realized that the ring we won wasn't going to be given, but earned. I'm not saying that other corps weren't working as hard as us, but that we finally decided as a 150 member family that we were going to bust our ##### and go out this season with a bang, and we did.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Spontaneity

[BDCorno]

I can't speak for Thursday, as I didn't arrive until early evening to Indy. However, having not seen BDB at all this season, I was duly impressed with the high quality of the group. Saw them in warmups at the park, prior to entering LOS (was there with a friend whose kid marched PC). What an outstanding group...and I thought their placement was just about right. The thought that they belonged in finals? No, don't think so...but they aren't far off.

As a former judge, I'm sure the jump from prelims to semis was more a function of "fitting" placements when in a large show format. Tendency is for there to be more disagreement on rank/rate as the quality of groups decreases...add in the need to leave room, and scores tend to spread. Once everyone has been seen, some scrambling of placements/scores will occur. Throw in an extraordinary performance here and there, you will see some dramatic movement at times. I thought the entire swath of groups from BDB through Mandarins were all quite good. It's important that these groups continue to prosper and grow, for the good of the activity. Let's hope so!

[N.E. Brigand]

Coming from a BDB member, I'll tell you our story...

Thanks for these behind-the-scenes in insights!

[luv4corps]

Beyond Troop, you had Colts, whose show this year was a significant step up from 2013. Same for Academy and OC.

So true. Academy's show became one of my favorites. Last year, well, let's just say everybody needs a bathroom break. For OC, there isn't even a question between this year and ALL other years, not just last year. To blanket all these shows into a "not as good as last year" doesn't cut it. That's why scoring can be so misleading as to the real value of a show. 10 years later, your show is a number in an archive. Oh sure there are favorites that are talked about for decades, but I'm talking shows in general.

The only 13-19 corps that would truly fall into the "not as good as last year" category is Spirit.

Edited August 16, 2014 by luv4corps