BRASSO Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 (edited) Every professional sports league recognizes that there are 2 factors essential for long-term success: rules that preserve the integrity of the game and spending limits. DCI has neither. They've chosen "evolution" over growth. A devil's bargain. Even the NCAA protects the long term integrity of the competitiveness of its major revenue producing sports by establishing sensible transfer policies in place that make a transfer sit out an entire season before being allowed to play that sport at their transfer school. I " get " that most people here don't want any sensible and reasonable transfer policies established in DCI as EVERY other pro and amateur sport in the entire world has ( including Little League, Bantom Hockey, etc ). I do" get"that.... and their reasons put forth as why they'd oppose such a change as this. But what the " no transfer rules " crowd don't seem to " get " in return, is that without such sensible and reasonable rules implemented, it is pretty much ridiculous to then believe that ( for just on e example ) that a Corps like Pacific Crest is ever going to seriously competitively challenge the Blue Devils... or that of the Cadets. The Cadets and the Blue Devils are going to perpetually benefit from the no transfer policy of DCI from now until the end of Time. The notion that they'll be any substantive change at the top tier without a sensible and reasonable transfer policy implementation ( that ALL amateur, pro sports leagues have ) is frankly no less than utter delusional thinking, imo. Edited June 28, 2015 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vferrera Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Maybe it is just me, but it seems like the DCI of the last few years has very little in common with the DCI of the era The Cavaliers dominated. Please don't get me wrong, I think the traditions of the Scouts and Cavaliers are among the things that make DCI what it is. But it just seems like the Haves are getting bigger, better and farther ahead of the Have Nots, and when you start with half the eligible members not being eligible to even audition, I don't know how you can hope to compete at the Have level. but mostly with regard to color guard. Male guard members are a limited resource. Really shows when Scouts or Cavies guard is having an off year. Not to mention that even the best all-male guards are different than female or co-ed guards. On the other hand, imagine Pirates of Lake Mendota or Mad World with a female guard. Nope. Brass and percussion are <<50% female, so it's less of an impact there. I'm guessing ~25% female, at most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad75 Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 (edited) The lower tier corps have always been feeder corps for the top 4/5. When we marched in 1978, our lead sops came from Blue Knights, Troopers, etc. But you are correct about the different financial tiers. Scouts were always strapped for cash, but could still compete, even in gussied up janitor suits and concrete hats. DCI recognized financial disparity as a problem way back in the early 70s. The 128 member limit was one way they tried to level the playing field, and was instituted after 1975 in response to Madison having something like 135 members. In fact, the size limit was a concession to the CA corps so they could tour in 3 busses rather than 4. Every professional sports league recognizes that there are 2 factors essential for long-term success: rules that preserve the integrity of the game and spending limits. DCI has neither. They've chosen "evolution" over growth. A devil's bargain. Dead on Vince, I fondly remember the boy's from Casper, and many, many other corps former members that came to don the fancy dark green janitor suit and high impact head lid...It's simply very unfortunate that Madison has now succumb to "feeder" status...I never thought I'd see the day. And the genie is out of the bottle...DCI sold its soul many years ago. Integrity preservation and spending limits be d#mned. Edited June 28, 2015 by Mad75 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lumbargleeful Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 I really thought 2002 would be the only wake up call they needed. For some reason the scouts have convinced themselves that antique, late 90s drum corps is "the madison way" and so they beat you over the head with it. They went down that path for several years and got bumped out. Then they brought in the DVD crowd and went straight back down that road, but hey, the alums loved it because it was "purely Madison! and purely magic!" If you want to be competitive you have to play the game. OR be so good, for so long, that you dictate what the game is (bd). This is like watching a terrible remake of a B movie from the 50s. I already know how it will end, even if it is 12-15 years later than the last time this SAME thing happened. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vferrera Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Kinda always been like that. Although some might have a different view. It was easier for all to compete maybe but times have for sure changed and so has who the activity serves. Difference today is in many ways the members of today don t have a problem traveling way out of an area to become one of the haves. Not that you are doing this but some blame the haves for what the have not's dont have. IMO the have not's play a part in that role also. Not everyone is a victim by others hands. I don't think it's a matter of blame. Just simple economics. If DCI got rid of all its rules and restrictions, you'd have a few corps that could afford to put on an all-singing, all-dancing Vegas-style blow-out with professional lighting, sound, pyrotechnics, etc. At that point, it would be obvious that it's not a competition. If you want true competition, you needs some limits. You don't have to go with the least-common-denominator. There has to be a compromise. You cannot put a 2M corps on the same field as a 900K corps and call it a competition. Set the bar at 1.25M or something like that. Of course, BD and SCV would then have the problem of what to do with all their extra cash and still maintain non-profit status, but I'm sure they can add a few more corps (BD-D, BD-E) and expand their international program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corps8294 Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 ...and just think, there was a time when some corps that earned those final spots in the top 25 (20th-25th) made them feel like they were in with the top tier. That feeling has eroded over the years to corps thinking the top 17 was the big time then onto the top 12. Now, if a corps makes the top 12, they have to wonder about vet retention, as most of those members will be primed, groomed, and well prepared for a top 7 corps. The era of "super vets" is probably gone, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamarag Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 (edited) Even the NCAA protects the long term integrity of the competitiveness of its major revenue producing sports by establishing sensible transfer policies in place that make a transfer sit out an entire season before being allowed to play that sport at their transfer school. I " get " that most people here don't want any sensible and reasonable transfer policies established in DCI as EVERY other pro and amateur sport in the entire world has ( including Little League, Bantom Hockey, etc ). I do" get"that.... and their reasons put forth as why they'd oppose such a change as this. But what the " no transfer rules " crowd don't seem to " get " in return, is that without such sensible and reasonable rules implemented, it is pretty much ridiculous to then believe that ( for just on e example ) that a Corps like Pacific Crest is ever going to seriously competitively challenge the Blue Devils... or that of the Cadets. The Cadets and the Blue Devils are going to perpetually benefit from the no transfer policy of DCI from now until the end of Time. The notion that they'll be any substantive change at the top tier without a sensible and reasonable transfer policy implementation ( that ALL amateur, pro sports leagues have ) is frankly no less than utter delusional thinking, imo. You've posted this argument several times over the last couple years. It's actually a fairly reasoned argument (I disagree with it, but that's fine). The flaw I see, however, is that you don't consider the most impactful element members have to consider when changing corps...age limits. Kids have a limited window in which to march, and talking years away for changing corps would severely impact their marching careers. Compound that with the fact that a lot of members come to a corps to march under certain staff, should they be limited when those staffers move on or are sacked? That's actually a huge argument in college sports right now, and relates as long as you consider DCI to be a sport (I don't, but your mileage may vary). Edited June 28, 2015 by Kamarag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamarag Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 ...and just think, there was a time when some corps that earned those final spots in the top 25 (20th-25th) made them feel like they were in with the top tier. That feeling has eroded over the years to corps thinking the top 17 was the big time then onto the top 12. Now, if a corps makes the top 12, they have to wonder about vet retention, as most of those members will be primed, groomed, and well prepared for a top 7 corps. The era of "super vets" is probably gone, too. No, every corps still has it's share of long-time members. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vferrera Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 I really thought 2002 would be the only wake up call they needed. For some reason the scouts have convinced themselves that antique, late 90s drum corps is "the madison way" and so they beat you over the head with it. They went down that path for several years and got bumped out. Then they brought in the DVD crowd and went straight back down that road, but hey, the alums loved it because it was "purely Madison! and purely magic!" If you want to be competitive you have to play the game. OR be so good, for so long, that you dictate what the game is (bd). This is like watching a terrible remake of a B movie from the 50s. I already know how it will end, even if it is 12-15 years later than the last time this SAME thing happened. I'm sorry, but NONE of this is true. The truth is that they are putting out the best drum corps they can without going into debt. It's as simple as that. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmurrey74 Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 I really thought 2002 would be the only wake up call they needed. For some reason the scouts have convinced themselves that antique, late 90s drum corps is "the madison way" and so they beat you over the head with it. They went down that path for several years and got bumped out. Then they brought in the DVD crowd and went straight back down that road, but hey, the alums loved it because it was "purely Madison! and purely magic!" If you want to be competitive you have to play the game. OR be so good, for so long, that you dictate what the game is (bd). This is like watching a terrible remake of a B movie from the 50s. I already know how it will end, even if it is 12-15 years later than the last time this SAME thing happened. I agree. They are being out designed. It's not a money issue. If there is extra equipment, that's primarily coming through sponsorships and smart financial planning by turning equipment turn-over into a significant profit center. Madison was the reason I fell in love with drum corps. Watching the show this year is difficult. It's a show stuck well in the past and good luck with attracting extremely experienced members to this corps next year. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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