When was the last time this was discussed?

[Jeff Ream]

here's a stat not brought up:

it's no secret 2009/2010 were some of the worst years for DCI in terms of business, attendance etc in recent history...yet if you want to cry about a corps or a group of corps always winning:

2009 BD

2010 BD

2011 Cadets

2012 BD

2013 Crown

2014 BD

yet business has consistently picked up, as has the talent in the corps top to bottom.

so who says the same faces winning is bad?

[Jeff Ream]

Because this is what the Corpsband poster here typically does... he takes a comment from me and takes into the personal insult vein ( as you.. and probably others... once again have perceptively observed from him). I'm used to his schtick by now however, and so it doesn't concern me.

usually because you tend to delete key words from the original post to twist it into your theory of how life should be

[nemesiscorps]

So whats the middle ground? Why would it change a thing. Are you asking those who win to be at a disadvantage and give those below more? I want to get what you are saying but don't see how it would change a thing.jmo

Okay, let's start by agreeing that whatever is proposed does not translate into a loss or disadvantage to any corps.

Now I'll just start spitballing crazy ideas here, in no particular order of value (and I admit, some of these are quite radical).

• Since we all agree that "it's not all about the scores and placement" that drives interest in the activity, let's consider another way to promote it. For example, rather than implying that it's a "Major League" activity, contextually aligning it with sports or competition, get rid of (or minimize) the sport-like connotations. Yes, keep the scores, placements, etc. for those that care, but simply market the events and the activity in alternatively unique ways. Emphasize the calibre and uniqueness of the performance content achievement; the uniqueness and characteristics of the genre itself; the diverse makeup of the ensembles (i.e. includes performers from around the world); take a page from Brass Theater; Blast!; Blue Man Group; Stomp!; Future Corps; etc. Treat the scores in the manner that they do on "Who's Line Is It Anyway?," "Where the points don't matter." Watering down the sporting or competition angle and glorifying the uniqueness and entertainment aspects may bring needed notoriety to far more corps that could use a boost in their value assessment from equipment manufacturers, as well as people that simply want to be entertained by something other than what they'll find on a television, movie, or computer screen.
• Throw in a weighted, electronic score from fans that can be factored in with the judges' results (the "Dancing With The Stars" approach). As we all know, models for this kind of fan interaction already exist in society. The "fan score" itself doesn't have to be a game changer, but it should have some meaningful contribution. This element could be done via phone app, call in votes (i.e. American Idol), Fan Network, or any other gimmicky manner modeled for example from fans voting for the MLB Allstar Teams. Remember, according to most who've posted here, scores don't matter, so who cares if things get shaken up a bit on the placement results?
• How about more "Spirit of Disney-type" awards? These type of awards could come from any number of sources, for any number of reasons, to include on and off field activities of the corps. Give those awards some weight as well and factor them into the world championships week scores.
• How about a "People's Choice" award? We have the technology to limit multiple voting, so that's not an issue. However, if someone decides to go nuts to get their family and friends to become aware of and vote for some "online drum corps thing," good! We need to increase awareness and engagement.
• How about no scores at all awarded until the 2nd week in July? Since the trend of corps not having a complete show when the season starts seems to be continuing, get rid of all the scores until mid-July. Use an early season exhibition model for training new and veteran judges in real time, along with establishing valuable dialog between judges, designers, and instructors during critique opportunities (which btw can be done electronically these days. Corps and their staffs shouldn't have to hang around a venue to engage judges... after all, it is 2015... we have the technology.).
• Ensure that at each World Championship, the judges' panel has at least one highly credentialed, completely impartial assessor for each caption brought in (i.e. a "famous" composer, conductor, choreographer, performer, etc.). Again, this would be an "American Idol" or "X-Factor" approach, allowing for a completely fresh read from professionals on each production, with the guest judge having absolutely no knowledge of DCI's history, the corps' histories, or the competitive trends for the season. It shouldn't be too tough to find people that don't know anything about this niche activity, yet have max credentials in their field (music, dance, drama, etc.) to offer an opinion, but also ensure that they've been isolated or sequestered from the season, and that they know nothing about drum corps or the performances they'll see. Find a way to factor in their weighted score. Again, it doesn't have to be a game changer, but it should have meaning behind it.
• Throw in some incentive performance criteria for corps to attempt to achieve if they choose to, and reward them to whatever degree it if they pull it off, similar to gymnastics, competitive diving, or figure skating. The corps shouldn't be penalized for not doing any of them, but rewarded accordingly if they do.
• DCA holds a mini-corps competition, why can't DCI do that too? The units could be comprised of current members, alumni, all-age, whatever. If a corps has an entry for the competition, judge them and factor their score into the world championship week big picture score. If corps don't have an entry, send a contingent of the corps or the entire corps itself to do a standstill performance. Judge it, and give them credit toward their big-picture, world championships week score.
• Include incentive points for corps that provide Individual and Ensemble entries for the old I&E Competition. Throw a tenth of a point or two into their full corps score, based upon the contribution and results of the I&E Competition. The participants need only be members of the organizations in whatever capacity, and not necessarily marching members. What a great way to hold on to a kid that didn't make the marching corps, but as a member in this supplement unit status, they can build or refine their skills in these events that can count toward the final world championships outcome. These performance units could also be a great breeding ground for developing designers or instructors that may be looking to eventually get a shot on the "A-Team."
• Have DCI itself (the corps) create this kind of "out of the box list of possibilities" (rather than me doing this during an insomnia episode), with the expectation from it's fan base that they'll annually share what they've come up with. The question for DCI being: "What can we (DCI) create that benefits us all, while taking nothing away from any of us, and keeps what we do as an activity and circuit reasonably fresh, unique, and exciting for all spectators?"
• I could go on.

My point is, when you go to a professional sporting event these days, there's all kinds of added extras thrown in for the fans to enjoy the entire experience, not just the game. The Tour of Champions Events already do this kind of stuff, DCI is already experimenting with Drumline Battle, etc., I'm simply saying let's throw some "value points" behind all that too, and find a way to factor it all into the "big score" picture. Doing much of the above would certainly take some work and some $$$, but if DCI can find a way to get some of this going without taking away from what's already being done, the benefits could be substantial.

It's easy to come up with reasons why something "can't" be done. Why not invest time into figuring out ways that something can be accomplished at some level, in a reasonable way? I think there's a strong argument (and evidence) for the "staleness" of DCI's current competitive approach.

People love when the circus comes to town, or the variety of things they'll see in a parade. I think drum corps has the ultimate vehicle to entertain people in a wide variety of ways, and to show off the strengths of ALL it's corps. With all we have, let's draw people into what we do by capitalizing on the opportunities, and reward achievement across the board for what could be.

Edited February 9, 2015 by nemesiscorps

[nemesiscorps]

here's a stat not brought up:

it's no secret 2009/2010 were some of the worst years for DCI in terms of business, attendance etc in recent history...yet if you want to cry about a corps or a group of corps always winning:

2009 BD

2010 BD

2011 Cadets

2012 BD

2013 Crown

2014 BD

yet business has consistently picked up, as has the talent in the corps top to bottom.

so who says the same faces winning is bad?

Why is there such a resistance to look at the full spectrum of DCI World Champion results for its 42-year history?

What you present does not look "bad," and no one is asserting that DCI has never done anything to address a variety of concerns like attendance, etc.

Your 6-year data set does not resonate with me beyond "BD must be really good." Similar to a dominant tennis star over a period of time, though there's very little subjectivity about a tennis star's dominance.

To me, the 42-year data set raises an eyebrow and establishes a reason for discussion of our subjectively judged activity. Why is that so hard to understand?

[corpsband]

What's all this? Why so personal in making your point?

It's a problem when posters "reply" but don't actually take any notice of the message they're replying to. Pointing it out every time it happens is a worthwhile endevour. Maybe the accumulative weight will eventually break through. Many other reponsible posters here have noted this behaviour and do the same thing.

[HockeyDad]

I didn't look at VFW Nats. I looked at AL nats, period. I didn't "omit" anything.

But...let's play your little game.

Same 15 year period, VFW Nats...6 wins for St Vinnie's, 6 for the Cavies, 2 for BS, and 1 for the Osmond Hurricanes at the beginning of that list.

VFW's 64-70...corps finishing in the top 4 for those 7 years...of the 28 slots, 7 different corps occupied all 28 slots.

My point still holds true. Thanks.

I'm not sure what your point is, other than to present some data that supposedly shows it's always been that way. You lost me with your claiim that 49-63 are considered the glory years of drum corps. Huh? Around here I most commonly see people say the 80s were the glory years of drum corps. Edited February 9, 2015 by HockeyDad

[31rabbit]

Around here I most commonly see people say the 80s were the glory years of drum corps.

my experience is that the Glory Years of Drum Corps tend to be the era that the person doing the gilding first encountered the activity :)

and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that

Edited February 9, 2015 by 31rabbit

[MikeD]

I'm not sure what your point is, other than to present some data that supposedly shows it's always been that way. You lost me with your claiim that 49-63 are considered the glory years of drum corps. Huh? Around here I most commonly see people say the 80s were the glory years of drum corps.

Not my claim...I've seen lots of claims by old-timers that the 50' and 60's were the glory years. I'll take this era, myself.

As to the point...that IS the point. There are peopel in this thread seem to think that all of a sudden when DCI started only a few corps have been top contenders. IMO that is far from true, and I showed evidence to back that up.

[nemesiscorps]

Not my claim...I've seen lots of claims by old-timers that the 50' and 60's were the glory years. I'll take this era, myself.

As to the point...that IS the point. There are peopel in this thread seem to think that all of a sudden when DCI started only a few corps have been top contenders. IMO that is far from true, and I showed evidence to back that up.

Howdy:

I'm not sure I've read anywhere that anyone has claimed that "all of a sudden when DCI started....," though it's possible that I missed such a claim or post.

Anyway, this thread began with a simple reflective look back at champion-to-competitor ratios for 42 years of DCI. I'm not sure if I came across claiming anything in particular, but instead, I wanted to explore this data within the context of assessing DCI's organizational strength, growth and stability.

It's certainly prudent for people to cite similar circumstances, eras, etc., but I'll stay the course in trying to bring it back to the issue presented, and within context to the data that I'm referencing.

Thanks for contributing.

[N.E. Brigand]

Here's a stat not brought up:

it's no secret that 2009/2010 were some of the worst years for DCI in terms of business, attendance, etc. in recent history ...

Well, 2009-2010 were tough all around due to the Great Recession. Improvements since then could simply be due to the economy improving.

As for this:

... yet if you want to cry about a corps, or a group of corps, always winning:

2009 BD

2010 BD

2011 Cadets

2012 BD

2013 Crown

2014 BD

while business has consistently picked up, as has the talent in the corps top to bottom. So who says the same faces winning is bad?

I think it's possible to interpret this recent history as follows:

In 2009-10, DCI suffered due to the economy. Blue Devils' consecutive wins made little impact one way or the other. Possibly DCI might have had an even worse 2009 if BD had beaten Phantom Regiment in 2008.

In 2011, four different corps jostled for first place during the season, and finally Cadets won for the first time in six years. What's more, they did it without a show that displeased a large segment of the audience, unlike their heavily vocalized performances in 2006-2008 and their L'il Geoffrey show in 2010. This made fans more hopeful for 2012.

In 2012, while BD won, and with a show that displeased a large part of the audience due to its obscure theme and heavy sampling of French, German, and English spoken-word pieces, Carolina Crown stirred people's hopes for a new champion (even though they never did beat BD) and finished a stronger second than they had in 2009, while Phantom, a perennial favorite with a large segment of the audience, had their most successful show since 2008 (although personally I preferred "Into the Light" to "Turandot"). Having attended Finals for the first time, I can attest that those two corps had the longest lines at the souvenir booths--while several people who were at Finals said here that the crowd who stayed to watch BD's encore was as small as they'd seen for a victory run. So it seems likelier that DCI's fortunes were helped less by BD's victory than by people's appreciation and hopes for other corps.

In 2013, Crown justified those hopes by beating BD at a few early shows, which further stoked people's interests. The season was exciting throughout, with BD, Crown, and Cadets all winning head-to-head at one time or another. (Crown also utilized social media successfully to help further pique fans' interest, with probably the first DCI-themed Twitter hashtag that anyone actually knew outside the corps itself.) And then Crown actually won, the first non-Cadeviliers champion since 2008 and the first brand-new champion since 1992. One need only listen to the audience reaction when BD was announced in second place to know the general sentiment in DCI fandom at the end of that year.

In 2014, DCI capitalized on the fans' interest in the new champion by webcasting Crown's preview performance. And then Akron happened. Remember the 48 hours between the Saturday performance and the Monday cinemacast of that performance, when the rumors were flying from the relatively few DCP posters who had attended that show that Bluecoats had something really special? And then audiences nationwide got to fall for "Tilt". Bluecoats were in the position of Crown 2009, with a popular show that looked reasonably likely to bring them their best finish to date. Never beating Cadets until Finals made that interest very intense. And yes, while BD won overall, it had been early evident that they were so good that people were talking in July about the possibility of a record score--and their show more audience friendly than it had been in years.