Rose Bowl- Corps at the Crest Part Dos

[tigger2]

I agree with much that has been said here. I am one that thinks early scores matter, and more importantly, that the amount of feedback each unit gets early on in the season may be crucial to final placements.

I think this affects BD less than PC, Cadets less than Spirit.

A few supportive points:

"Top" Groups:

In most fans' terms, BD will never have a "bad" year (though they make think so from time to time). They will write great shows

that will be rewarded well on each year's sheets. The corps will always be more mature, aged than most. Even before

listening to one tape, their staff has detailed show development plans in the works. Because of their maturity in all facets of

their organization, they may need early input less than other groups. I would say this is true for other "top" corps as well.

Early Surgers:

A corps seeming to make a early season surge (SCV, Bloo, PC) may need the input and scores more early in the season as a

way of reinforcing the staff's view of themselves, the support of planned changes/additions/enhancements, and some due

ego boost to members.

Corps 11-15:

This group may need the early input more than any. Besides reasons mentioned for the early surgers, these groups may have

design flaws the staff may not see right now, some possibly major. These members and staffs may be more nervous,

questioning at this stage. Such is expected, and a mature staff will know how to handle that. Though all grpups want to

know how they compare to the groups scoring around them, a good tape/critique often reveals not only what needs

attention, but what issues need addressing sooner than later. Ego can be a positive or negative within this grouping.

Not going to happen this year group:

Though no corps should ever throw in the towel at any stage of the game, sometimes you just know sooner than later that

the goal of making finals, semis, are not yet an option (Spirit, probably Colts). Early input may help reinforce what a staff

should do differently next year in terms of off-season design and/or training, what the corps needs to look and sound like

early season next year. This could allow for the staff to spend the summer making the show as great as possible, but also

using the summer to watch, listen, take note of what other group are doing in the live setting, building as much trust and

commaraderie in the group as to help with next year's retention (not that all corps do not do this any way). Side Note: These

groups can be greatly affected by talent levels, corps' average age, early season rain/weather issues. etc. Bottom line, one

group will always deal with these issues better than the others, plan ahead better than the others, write a better show than

the others, come out the gate strong- and that is usually the group that makes that final spot and yes, there are extremely

rare exceptions. To count on being that rare exception is a gamble I would never want to take.

ALL Groups:

First place or second, twelth or thirteenth, placements can of course be decided by less than a tenth of a point. Groups are

always hyper aware of the corps placing just above or just below them. The more consistently a group out-places you, the

more likely that will remain the case come finals week. Another thread discusses how often corps have made a two or even

one placement jump after July. While it happens, it is not common. I would want judge input when competing with the

groups that I am touring with, and especially with my competitive peers that I have not seen. As the early summer

progresses, we begin to see judges flying across country to evaluate various groups. Though we can consider differing

show dynamics, there is something to be said for same judge, same caption, same sheets. I would prefer a "ballpark"

comparison over no compariosn at all.

[Cappybara]

George I respect you and mostly agree with your posts, but I don't think theirs much inflation here esp in relation to the Regiment, BK, SCV or BD. if there's West Coast inflation u could make the argument with Academy, PC and Mandarins but those corps are all having banner years and have improved light years. Cavies have a great corps this year, but the layering/noisiness of the show may hurt them in the end. Of BK, Phantom and Cavies I think the Cavies have the most Forced Music book. In my opinion it doesn't flow well. I think Phantom has very well layered and thought out music- may not have as much meat technically as Cavies or BK but still a great well written book. Drill wise all three corps have great and effective writing. Performance wise BK and Cavies have amazing drums this year and Phantom is right there also. Brass BK is slightly ahead of Regiment but basically tied and the quality I'm sure is no different from Cavies. Guard wise BK is showing promise but likely behind Cavies and is behind Regiment. GE is hard to say til they all stack up together. Vis seems to be strong for all three corps but again dirt in the early going, BK incomplete show- time will tell. Just saying this George I think this is the best Phantom has been since the Juliet show, this is the best BK has ever been and Cavies are also improved this season thus far. But, I contend that these three corps will switch places head to head all season long. Honestly there are 8 top 6 corps this year. Just my opinion, and you could be right about the scoring as well but the quality of judge that's on the West Coast is the same as the Midwest so I'm not buying the inflation for Regiment, or any West Coast Corps. Have a great season, I can't wait to see the Cadets in SA!!

Wes P

Regiment has been out scoring BK in Brass Content at every show. The only reason why they keep losing to BK in brass is because PR's brass achievement scores are very low. Not sure where you're getting this idea that BK has a "meatier" horn book.

[DrumManTx]

Does anybody think that Blue Stars (68.8 in WI) will only beat The Academy (67.1 in CA) by 1.7 head to head, or trail Crossmen (69.1 in IN) by .3? I sure don't. You can also track Scouts vs Crossmen - when they last played together in KY, Madison (66.5 in WI) led by 1.2, but last nights scores would have Crossmen (69.1 in IN) leaping to a 2.6 lead, a nearly 4 point swing. It appears to me that the folks at the Madison show have their scores deflated by around 2 points or so compared to the other two shows last night.

That's exactly why you don't compare scores from across the country.

[AMarcher]

I find if extremely unfair each year that midwest and east coast corps get the evil step child treatment from DCI. The advantage goes to the west coast corps since they receive full panel reviews and feedback that the rest of dci have to wait till when...July to get??? How can this be changed or is the excuse of saving money going to keep the field uneven and unfair to all but West Coast corps?? Given the way the whole DCI Live/Fan Network fiasco was handle I expect the favoritism to continue. Not a good way to run a company.

Being a west coast apologist, at first I was just going to dismiss this post. I then realized, however, that every champion since 2007 has spent at least a part of the early season on the west coast. Obviously all of the Blue Devil wins, but 2008 saw Phantom Regiment make a trip west as well as The Cadets in 2011 and Carolina Crown in 2013. You may have a point here. I guess that means if you want to win then you should head west.

Edited June 28, 2015 by AMarcher

[wesleyrp]

Regiment has been out scoring BK in Brass Content at every show. The only reason why they keep losing to BK in brass is because PR's brass achievement scores are very low. Not sure where you're getting this idea that BK has a "meatier" horn book.

Fair enough but can you give an accurate content score to a corps that's incomplete? Just saying the content should be higher for Phantom now, BK is still not whole. The post you speak of isn't to bash Phantom who I like this year, it's to point out that I believe Phantom and BK for that matter are and should be in the competitive range right now with the Cavies and their scores are not being inflated. Happy Sunday

[Cappybara]

Fair enough but can you give an accurate content score to a corps that's incomplete? Just saying the content should be higher for Phantom now, BK is still not whole. The post you speak of isn't to bash Phantom who I like this year, it's to point out that I believe Phantom and BK for that matter are and should be in the competitive range right now with the Cavies and their scores are not being inflated. Happy Sunday

Gotcha. Any idea when BK will have their full show on the field?

[wesleyrp]

Word I hear is in Oregon

[George Dixon]

Great point and justified... Interestingly enough, I was thinking the same thing in the last few shows with the Cavies... With only one champion level corps at the show above Cavaliers lately their scores have jumped rather dramatically and might have been held down a bit with a bigger lineup. Great point and why going the SA show is already making me smile. What a season shaping up

I might roll down there too. Have to decide last minute. Missed it the past 2 years... If I do I will buy you a beverage of your choice!

[JohnD]

So accurate feedback during the early part of the season doesn't matter? Tell me you're not serious. This is THE MOST crucial time of the year to formulate and refine shows. Not after you've met up with everyone at a Regional.

And plus, I'm not talking about scores, I'm talking about feedback. Feedback feedback feedback. What is and what isn't working. Every night, the boys on the coast are getting 3 additional tapes to listen to. Multiply that by 7 or 8 shows before they hit the rest of the circuit and you're talking 20+ additional critiqued views for opportunities to improve upon and make key changes to a show. Instructors of some other top flight corps are getting peeved and that's coming directly from the horse's mouth. I still haven't heard an explanation for why this practice of awarding the west coast with full panels every night is acceptable from an educational standpoint. And this is not about number of corps. There was a show in Muncie the other night that had 8 of the Top 12 FINALIST corps there and it was slated for a 5-body panel. My proof is listed above and the skewed listing is fact. I'm just asking why this can not be changed or at least made so it attempts to look a bit more balanced.

If my memory serves me correctly, the show sponsors (corps) on the west coast (DCI West) have elected to spend the extra money to pay for full judging panels and take the hit against the profits for their shows. There is no "reward" for the west coast from DCI. I'm pretty sure that if the show sponsors anywhere else in the country wanted to provide a full panel for their early season shows, DCI would be more than happy to provide (sell) them.

[IMcomguy]

If my memory serves me correctly, the show sponsors (corps) on the west coast (DCI West) have elected to spend the extra money to pay for full judging panels and take the hit against the profits for their shows. There is no "reward" for the west coast from DCI. I'm pretty sure that if the show sponsors anywhere else in the country wanted to provide a full panel for their early season shows, DCI would be more than happy to provide (sell) them.

That's the legend as it is told, indeed. I would be curious to see proof of this, as there are some shows not sponsored directly by said corps that also end up with the full kit and kaboodle each and every year as well. So all the sponsors got together and collectively decided to pay for full panels, why?

I'll still bring back my original statement of not hearing an explanation on how this is deemed acceptable from an educational standpoint as the balance of feedback is way off. If it's because the money is fronted, so be it. But DCI should step in and create a level playing field for adjudication at these early shows especially. Again, it is the most crucial time of the year for so many groups developmentally. It really reflects poorly on the organization as there really has never been any public statement about it, yet the public can clearly see the disparity visible on the recaps by simply counting the number of judges on each sheet.

It would be like using two umpires in MLB for the National League, while the American League games all get a full slate (or Yankees/Red Sox games only). Or just not providing any replay systems to NFL games that aren't on National TV, but only regionally shown....etc. etc.

Edited June 28, 2015 by IMcomguy