GUARDLING Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Well, I wasn't even alive during the tic system so I don't know much about it...all I know is I would be in favor of a more performance based system. I agree that I doubt we will see it, but I personally would do two GE judges who both are responsible for 10 points each. Then you could maybe add a guard judge (I've heard people say this is the most subjective performance caption, I'm not a gusrd person myself) and have both visual and music worth 40 points. This way GE would be more the icing on the cake which still helps to determine a winner and is still important but on the whole does weight the scoring more to objectivity. I hear ya and your point. Objectivity, not so sure..thanks for the civil conversation, agree or not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.E. Brigand Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Carolina Crown won themselves a DCI Title just two seasons ago with a 6th place finish in the Performance Execution caption of Percussion (as they had a terrific adult-created show design). Has ANY DCI corps won a DCI title outright with a 6th place in one of the two GE (show design) captions? No. Could a corps win a DCI title in the future finishing as low as 6th in either of the two GE captions? Of course not. It's entirely out of the question under the current sheets. That's what this thread topic is all about, i.e., the shift of points to be had under the current sheets from performer based, to adult show-design based. Now, no one here is saying that performance execution is not critically important. We are saying we notice a shift from performer-based to more of a show design-based system than we have ever seen in DCI ever before. The loss of full judging panels, with the ancillary loss of these performance based captions for much of the season is simply one visible manisfestation of this.. As regards the first statement of yours that I have put in boldface: I haven't gone back to check the DCI Finals results of the past 44 years; I'm just trusting that you're correct. In which case, that raises a conundrum as regards the second of your statements I have bolded (and partly underlined). This thread is titled "Return the power to the performers" and in your description of what this thread is "all about", you specifically identify (more than once) a "shift" in recent years. But if, as you say, all of DCI history is one in which a corps can win a championship with one low performance score but not one low G.E. score, then when did this "shift" happen and to what year is the proposed "return" to be? 1971? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 (edited) . But if, as you say, all of DCI history is one in which a corps can win a championship with one low performance score but not one low G.E. score, then when did this "shift" happen and to what year is the proposed "return" to be? in my opinion, it was a gradual transformation from more performer based to more adult created Show Design based. If you are looking for a year, I would say the year DCI decided to forego full judging panels a few years back accelerated this transformation. I'm actually not quite sure on the exact year DCI abandoned their long held policies of having guarantees on full judging panels to their marchers. Perhaps another poster here might know what year that was for us. As for what year I'd like the system to have full judging panels with full performance execution captions for all shows ?. I'd say for 2016.. Having the change to full judging panels for all DCI competitions should help return some needed balance to the over emphasis now toward the skew toward the adult created Show Designs on the new sheets. Are you in favor, N.E. Brigand, of a return to the guarantee to the MM's of full judging panels for all shows ? Or do you believe ( as some apparently do ) that we can effectively judge a Drum & Bugle Corps competition without a Drum performance execution judge.... a Brass performance execution judge.... or a Guard performance execution judge... or any loss of a combination, thereof ? Edited August 30, 2015 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornTeacher Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Someone answer me this...what is the "purpose" of General Effect as a caption? It would seem that many judges disagree on this. Good question, drumcorpsfan. I guess the answer lies in the fact that it provides a "gray area," or area of subjective critique. Because it is based purely on personal assessment with no proven basis for possible subsequent change, it becomes. through definition of use, faultless and indisputable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drumcorpsfan4567 Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Good question, drumcorpsfan. I guess the answer lies in the fact that it provides a "gray area," or area of subjective critique. Because it is based purely on personal assessment with no proven basis for possible subsequent change, it becomes. through definition of use, faultless and indisputable.For there to be some area of subjective critique is understandable but 40 points of it is too much IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornTeacher Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 For there to be some area of subjective critique is understandable but 40 points of it is too much IMO. In all fairness and respect, drumcorps fan...you are preaching to the choir. But I am sure that, given time, there will be many who will come forward and warn you against taking my words seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drumcorpsfan4567 Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 Haha, guess this is what you get when you're not around the forum too much :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Tuma Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 The current DCI outstanding Corps adult Show Designers have known these judges for, in some cases, 40 years. Knowing them this long, they probably know the personal likes ( and personal dislikes ) of these judges all the way down to what their favorite beverage is. So naturally, these current Show Designers tend to avoid some genres of music and tend to gravitate toward others. For example, I personally enjoyed Crown's rock music inspired show " Rach Star ". Do I think Crown is going to attempt to wade into the waters of the rock music genre anytime again soon ? No. I don't believe so. And another thing, when Crown DID venture into the Rock Music realm a couple of years back, notice what they smartly did. They incorporated Rock Music from 30-40 years ago into that show. Why ? well we know why. These GE judges are in their 50's, 60's. Crown selected music from this genre for THEM. No way was Crown going to have their MM's play Rock Music in a DCI field show competition that their MM's are principally listening to on their iphones on the busses, in their headsets, etc. If nothing else then, these Show Designers know who their audience is, and on these judging sheets. Its the handful of people with the #2 pencils, of course. I guess that explains why Bluecoats have had such crappy placements the last couple years. It's that darn music the kids are listening to on their headphones! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) As regards the first statement of yours that I have put in boldface: I haven't gone back to check the DCI Finals results of the past 44 years; I'm just trusting that you're correct. Yes. Crown placed 6th in a MM'er performance execution caption ( Percussion ) and despite this, because of a great adult created show design, they still won themselves a DCI Title in 2013 For the history buffs here, not only has a DCI Corps not won a DCI title finishing as low as 6th place in a GE caption, no corps in DCI history ( back to its inception in 1972 ) has ever won a DCI Title with a total GE score ( musical/ visual ) that did not medal ( top 3 ). GE ( Show Design ) has always been important. But today, its is far, far, more important to the scores than performer execution on the new sheets. For further evidence, Crown could not have won a DCI Title had they placed 1st or 2nd in Percussion in 2013 ( performance execution caption ) but say 4th in General Effect total. For yet another example, SCV has had an outstanding Percussion section the last 4 years, always in the hunt for the Sanford Award for best Percussion section in DCI. Have they medaled ? No ? Nuff said then, right, ? ... on the predominance now of the adult created Show Designs over that of the MM's performance execution on the sheets ?..... especially when DCI now has no Drum judge.. no Brass judge... no Guard judge for the majority of its competitions each summer now ? . Edited August 31, 2015 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.E. Brigand Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) In my opinion, it was a gradual transformation from more performer-based to more adult-created show design-based. If you are looking for a year, I would say the year DCI decided to forgo full judging panels a few years back accelerated this transformation. I'm actually not quite sure on the exact year DCI abandoned their long-held policies of having guarantees on full judging panels to their marchers. Perhaps another poster here might know what year that was for us. As for what year I'd like the system to have full judging panels with full performance execution captions for all shows?. I'd say for 2016. Having the change to full judging panels for all DCI competitions should help return some needed balance to the over-emphasis now toward the skew toward the adult-created show designs on the new sheets. Are you in favor, N.E. Brigand, of a return to the guarantee to the MM's of full judging panels for all shows? Or do you believe (as some apparently do) that we can effectively judge a drum & bugle corps competition without a drum performance execution judge, a brass performance execution judge, or a guard performance execution judge, or any loss of a combination thereof? Quickly scanning From the Pressbox, it appears that the year in which DCI started using partial panels for early season shows was 2008. Curiously, even the west coast competitions seem to have had only five judges that year. In more recent years, the early season World Class shows on the west coast have had full panels, and it has been stated on these forums that this is because the west coast corps pay to have the extra three judges. I am curious why the western corps find this more important than the mid-state and eastern corps. To answer your question, I'm in favor of full panels at all shows. But while this subject has been something of an idée fixe for you, I'm not sure it's all that important, and I especially doubt its relevance to the issue under discussion. This is primarily because, as you'd already stated (and as far as I can tell based on FtP, where recaps are missing for the Finals of 1981, 1982, 1984, and 1985), no corps has ever won the DCI championship without being first or second in overall G.E. or being ranked below third in any G.E. caption.* Certainly no corps ever won while being as low as sixth in G.E., unlike the champion Blue Devils were in percussion in 1980 or, as you've mentioned, the champion Carolina Crown was in percussion in 2013. But while early season panels in 2013 were partial (though not for Crown, who started on the west coast), they were full in 1980. *I did find one exception: one G.E. judge this year put Blue Devils fourth. So based on your chosen example of General Effect as proxy for "adult-created" design, it's always been more important in DCI to have a top-notch design than to have a top-notch performance. And partial panels have nothing to do with it. You're calling for a return to a world that never existed in the first place. Edited August 31, 2015 by N.E. Brigand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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