xandandl Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 if the public tires. since hitting rock bottom in 2010, DCi has seen attendance continue to increase....and BD has won 3 of those years. The fact that you had 4 corps in he hunt this year helped, but it's been going up. I don't see it dropping much if at all next year. Better economy, even a close race doesn't guarrentee upward numbers, especially in the same Indiana place for the next ten years. You and I would be gazing on crystal balls if either of us presumed yes or no was a definite either way.; Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 I'm not forgetting that at all. That's why I said earlier in this thread that even the brass, percussion, guard, and visual execution captions are every bit as subjective as the effect captions. The big difference between the execution and effect captions is not that one is objective and the other is subjective, but that more people share the same opinion about what is good vs. bad in execution. Given that DCI adjusts the sheets from time to time, so that what once was bad is now good and vice versa, there's no reason we should be limiting our discussion to what's on the sheets right now. Discussion for discussion is one thing. Many who still actively do this have to look at it more realisitically. I agree with it ALL being subjective BUT I will also throw in there so is the statement about more people having the same opinion. I do remember many times vast differences in opinion there also . if you mean people watching again subjective Yes DCI will adjust sheets over and over as wgi did and Yes we wonder sometimes , wait that was no good last year but now its good? and a few years down the road its back again in another form? Alot of effort on some parts to discuss what needs to be done fortunately or unfortunately you also have to be in a position to make a change happen. Thats a very hard thing to do. even if you are on the inside. Thats a whole other hair raising topic. Dont want the hijackers to run with that one...lol Dont get me wrong i do understand what you are saying and agree to a point. Maybe it's just that some of us come from a different place which makes it a very different view. Subjective sure..lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 EXACTLY! Now what is the difference and why? Spell it out. It isn't yet enfleshed in the current DCI Rules and interpretations. What is appropriate to the DCI environment needs to be better explicated. Unfortunately, I have to sign-off now for life's other responsibilities and may not be back for a while. (Plus work on my Guardling homework assignment.). lol....no homework..lol Variety of effect is written but i pointed that out and so did Jeff Ream and still when written people dont want to accept it or what it could mean. At that point then it becomes talk for the sake of talk. There are many differences and sure sheets maybe can spell them out better but do you really think even if sheets were 1000 pages of explanation there will be those who will always say its not enough or still subjective. which they will be ( subjective )no matter how many explanations. Often ,more years ago, many staff of some corps would say to their members,. well it';s only their opinion , Now this is very true BUT at some point their opinion or not one has to do something about it and stop using it as an excuse for lack of success ( happens often with certain staffs ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 If the public tires of the same old ones winning all the time because the judges like them and the crowd picks someone else, then tickets eventually wither especially when costs of travel increase.. If people go home wondering why Crown doesn't win guard (or gold) when when winning it all season, tickets eventually wither especially when costs of travel increase.. If people don't understand what on earth is GE and why who wins GE usually wins DCI, tickets eventually wither I am agreeing with your last position ("To what...) but am differing in the conclusion that is based merely on business factors. DCI is a competition. When the public thinks it is rigged or skewed or leaves common sense out, that hurts business as being other than fair competition. I suspect you and I speak with very different folks involved in drum corps; your perspectives and mine are not in opposition, but different sides of a triangle which has DCI is fair competition as its base. I am saying that the elephant in the room is that these questions must be addressed for that perception to continue no matter who wins or medals or misses finals. But it DIDN'T happen. In 2015, among record attendance, your concerns did not take place. What must be changed to accommodate your fear that something bad will happen, when it hasn't. I have asked it now for multiple pages and, yet, no one, not a single person here, has answered the question "What made 2015 such a successful season?". If we can't answer that, why are we deciding fixes for imagined problems that only may lurk on the horizon? Why not instead focus on trying to duplicate what happened in 2015? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 But it DIDN'T happen. In 2015, among record attendance, your concerns did not take place. What must be changed to accommodate your fear that something bad will happen, when it hasn't. I have asked it now for multiple pages and, yet, no one, not a single person here, has answered the question "What made 2015 such a successful season?". If we can't answer that, why are we deciding fixes for imagined problems that only may lurk on the horizon? Why not instead focus on trying to duplicate what happened in 2015? Now isnt that the premise of many here? Now not saying xandandl but there are several that bring up fixes where clearly is no problem. Or at least just with a few subjective opinions....lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xandandl Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 But it DIDN'T happen. In 2015, among record attendance, your concerns did not take place. What must be changed to accommodate your fear that something bad will happen, when it hasn't. I have asked it now for multiple pages and, yet, no one, not a single person here, has answered the question "What made 2015 such a successful season?". If we can't answer that, why are we deciding fixes for imagined problems that only may lurk on the horizon? Why not instead focus on trying to duplicate what happened in 2015? ok, I got five minutes spare. I am not disagreeing with you about '15. I'm saying it would be the exception not the rule unless DCI learns the answer to your question and addresses the aspects I raise. Is there a figure of how many tickets were sold in the last month compared to previous years? That would answer competitive closeness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.E. Brigand Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Often, years ago, many staff of some corps would say to their members, Well, it's only their opinion. Now, this is very true, BUT at some point their opinion or not, one has to do something about it and stop using it as an excuse for lack of success (happens often with certain staffs). I perhaps should emphasize that, while all the criteria on the sheets are subjective, that doesn't mean I think any corps should use the subjectivity as an excuse for not winning. It will always be possible to improve the sheets, but they are satisfactorily clear enough that any corps should know why they are or are not achieving on them. Corps who disagree with the criteria on the sheets should argue for changes in the off-season--or accept that they're not going to win (which is a perfectly reasonable option, as long as it's made clear to the members). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 I perhaps should emphasize that, while all the criteria on the sheets are subjective, that doesn't mean I think any corps should use the subjectivity as an excuse for not winning. It will always be possible to improve the sheets, but they are satisfactorily clear enough that any corps should know why they are or are not achieving on them. Corps who disagree with the criteria on the sheets should argue for changes in the off-season--or accept that they're not going to win (which is a perfectly reasonable option, as long as it's made clear to the members). Agree and i do think that happens, Being honest and clear to members is another thing I think happens with some and not with several BUT that has nothing to do with sheets but all to do with possibly a staff not wanting to admit their own short comings and thats sad. So we totally agree...i think..lol 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) <snip> I am agreeing with your last position ("To what...) but am differing in the conclusion that is based merely on business factors. DCI is a competition. When the public thinks it is rigged or skewed or leaves common sense out, that hurts business as being other than fair competition. I suspect you and I speak with very different folks involved in drum corps; your perspectives and mine are not in opposition, but different sides of a triangle which has DCI is fair competition as its base. I am saying that the elephant in the room is that these questions must be addressed for that perception to continue no matter who wins or medals or misses finals. This is your first mistake, and you'd better not make it a point to "educate" the public about the standards on which corps are judged and a champion is determined. Talk about seeing sausage be made! The game is "rigged" in favor of this corps or that? Do you really think that anywhere close to a majority of fans know, let alone care, that it's rigged? According to the Who Are You survey of 2014, only 4% of fans attended shows to see a particular corps compete. Drum Corps is entertainment, not competition, to the vast majority of fan, IMO. Edited September 1, 2015 by garfield Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfrontz Posted August 31, 2015 Author Share Posted August 31, 2015 The competition is part of the entertainment. If DCI really were rigged, they would be doing a better job of rigging it. Who would have made the colossal screw up of letting BD win? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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