kdaddy Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 A few thoughts... - Yes, many BA staffers are involved in DCI. But the key one that is not is Wes Cartright, who is the driving force behind that BA show. So far as I know, his last involvement with DCI was with SCV in 91, and he was with BA's rival, Tulsa Union, at the time. (one of Union's flags was cut from SCV's large commie flag) - I suspect Don Hill still arranges for BA, as he judged their invitational. His stuff for BA and LD Bell has always been great, methinks. Aside from 2012, I never thought it translated to Regiment... - Speaking of Regiment, BA always plays classical music, yet they always tell a different story. Maybe that story is a bit esoteric, but at least it's not "boy gets the girl in the end." I wish Regiment took somewhat of a page from the BA book and told a more unique story with classical tunes. Also, if memory serves, BA usually doesn't use narration. - Completely agree with the OP that the BA design overall is more mature than the 2015 versions of Regiment, Blue Stars, BAC, Cavies, and Xmen from the top 12. And perhaps various captions of other shows. - I disagree that the props are clunky, and the comparison to BAC 2015 is way off. I thought they moved around the field very effortlessly (unlike, say, Cadets 2013). - Dan Potter announced at the show because he works at a Tulsa radio station, and Broken Arrow is a suburb of Tulsa. He is regularly involved with Tulsa Union HS as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 And, Garfield, where did William D. Revelli teach??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.E. Brigand Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 I think you make a good point, although I would say that (1) not all good high school BoA shows use voice (Broken Arrow didn't last year, for instance); (2) while there definitely is a near-compulsory aspect to body movement in Bands of America, the real, unspoken reason it's there is to give the performers something visually interesting to do that is easier than playing while marching--plus some of it is, you know, genuinely lovely and effective; (3) see no. 2; (4) the props just look interesting, they're moved pretty well, and who needs a story?; and (5) while Broken Arrow is better than most at playing while marching, they're also as good as any at disguising the fact that the music is coming from a performer who's standing still (or perhaps kneeling). There are, of course, plenty of more straightforward marching band shows out there that are well done in their own way and largely eschew the elements you describe. To speak of what I know best (if still not very well), Ohio high school marching bands: of about 230 groups that competed this year, only 43 participated in one or another BoA show . . . That leaves about 200 groups just in this one state participating in other circuits and taking whatever approach seems best to them, using all, some, or none of the elements you mention, for better or worse. You can judge for yourself; here is probably the best non-BoA Ohio band (show starts at 2:30): [video of Grove City H.S. marching band's 2015 show] So (1) no voice; (2) very little body movement (although what's there is arguably gratuitous); (3) no rolling on the ground; (4) no props; and (5) pretty good musicianship, the more so because most of it is done on the move. But I daresay that more than a few people look at that show and feel that it's boring for those same reasons! "Yeah, they've got some talent, but they'd sound better if only they'd have the brass rolling on the ground while the woodwinds stood still to play those tricky passages. And having the band move around so much means there's no chance to stage the guard effectively. Plus if there were some props it would add visual interest and provide focus." I got curious to see if my impression of the two shows was correct on this point. As it turns out, Grove City plays and moves much more than Broken Arrow: 5 min. 1 sec. of a 9 min. 24 sec. show, as opposed to Broken Arrow playing and moving for just 3 min. 19 sec. of a 10 min. 14 sec. show. That includes both body movement (which adds much more time to Broken Arrow, since there isn't any in Grove City) and sections where, e.g., the woodwinds are playing a hard part but standing still while simultaneously the brass are playing an easy part but moving (which may benefit both bands equally). I'm not saying that makes Grove City the better band, but the difference is enough to be striking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigW Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 It bothers me when people do Industrial Engineering style Time Studies on programs and somehow think or imply adjudicators should be running stopwatches and basing their scoring decisions based on that or think that they should. There's a lot more that goes into the overall stew and the rubrics. Quality of material and quality of performance supersedes sheer amount of time- also, this is a performing art- artistry trumps sheer amount of time issues- or should. Even my now-retired from the steel industry IE Dad agrees with me on this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 It bothers me when people do Industrial Engineering style Time Studies on programs and somehow think or imply adjudicators should be running stopwatches and basing their scoring decisions based on that or think that they should. There's a lot more that goes into the overall stew and the rubrics. Quality of material and quality of performance supersedes sheer amount of time- also, this is a performing art- artistry trumps sheer amount of time issues- or should. Even my now-retired from the steel industry IE Dad agrees with me on this issue. I wouldn't generally disagree if this "art" were, in fact, not judged or, rather, judged the way a mime (or other "performance art") might be. But we have rules and "rubrics" that build an expectation of movement and performance that is directly compared to others if not judged on specific time requirements. It's a simple but effective analogy: If Cadets came on the field and did a stand still performance several magnitudes better in musical performance quality over Blue Devils, who came out and combined music performance with movement, would Cadets be deserving of a better score? (Sorry, that sounds simplistic and condescending - I don't mean it to be. I know you're not a rookie.) The example NEBrigand gives is surely apt because it demonstrates to me, anyway, that Grove City more fully employs the basic requirements of our idiom's scoring sheets BETTER than Broken Arrow. GC is penalized for not being "artsy" enough when there is not rubric for judging "artsy" in the scoring sheets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brichtimp Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 And, Garfield, where did William D. Revelli teach??? Although Revelli created a beast at U of Michigan (Symphony Band especially), his Hobart, IN high school band back in the 1920s was strong....there are some sound files floating around youtube. https://youtu.be/XJVoW2Uc7MU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.E. Brigand Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 It bothers me when people do Industrial Engineering style Time Studies on programs and somehow think or imply adjudicators should be running stopwatches and basing their scoring decisions based on that or think that they should. There's a lot more that goes into the overall stew and the rubrics. Quality of material and quality of performance supersedes sheer amount of time- also, this is a performing art- artistry trumps sheer amount of time issues- or should. Even my now-retired from the steel industry IE Dad agrees with me on this issue. I understand what you're saying. It's art, let it be free! And yet, and yet. Before I pulled out the stopwatch, it struck me that Grove City's show, which overall felt less beautiful to me, visually and musically, than Broken Arrow's show, was in some more true to "marching band". If Broken Arrow didn't march and play at all, nobody would dispute that point. Everyone would agree that a band that never marches and plays isn't a marching band, right? What about a band that marched and played for only 5% of its show? 10% 15%, 20%? I'm sure there is no one right percentage of time that's needed to make a marching band a marching band. Given that I said in my very first post to this thread that Broken Arrow was my favorite high school marching band this year, apparently what they're doing is just enough for me. So why not figure out how much that is? 32% seems to have done the trick in my case. Others' tastes may vary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 Garfield and Brasso. You are both veteran posters here. You might take your comments privately. I am surprised that a moderator has not stepped in, although I suspect it's because of who you are and that no one wants to rock the boat by reporting your posts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 Garfield and Brasso. You are both veteran posters here. You might take your comments privately. I am surprised that a moderator has not stepped in, although I suspect it's because of who you are and that no one wants to rock the boat by reporting your posts. I'll let the B-guy speak for himself, but I think the mods showed superior restraint for both my crude comments and Brasso's reply precisely because they know we are both veterans. I'll surely admit my part as it was intended and deserved the tongue-lashing I got. But I got my message across as well and it was worth B's wrath to make it. Without attempting to mollify my actions, I'll suggest that, with continued participation here, you'll find others who've not hesitated to go toe-to-toe with Brasso even if not as directly as I did. That could also help explain the mod's patience when I was likely due a hand-slap. I doubt they'd let me address you that way, for example. I've needed the mods help on exactly two occasions and they were quick to act on my behalf. I'm sure they'd do the same for Brasso or anyone if asked. And, IMO, they're walk a very fine line extremely well in "moderating" this place and, for them, I'll offer my apology for my actions. For Brasso? Pfft. It's just band. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 I understand what you're saying. It's art, let it be free! And yet, and yet. Before I pulled out the stopwatch, it struck me that Grove City's show, which overall felt less beautiful to me, visually and musically, than Broken Arrow's show, was in some more true to "marching band". If Broken Arrow didn't march and play at all, nobody would dispute that point. Everyone would agree that a band that never marches and plays isn't a marching band, right? What about a band that marched and played for only 5% of its show? 10% 15%, 20%? I'm sure there is no one right percentage of time that's needed to make a marching band a marching band. Given that I said in my very first post to this thread that Broken Arrow was my favorite high school marching band this year, apparently what they're doing is just enough for me. So why not figure out how much that is? 32% seems to have done the trick in my case. Others' tastes may vary. Interesting. A "Percentage More Marching Band" than... what? A percentage requires the other definition: If BA marched 40% it would be more "marching band" (in the GC style) than... What is BA when they're not marching? If you ask Brasso they're all 100% marching bands. Grove City was infinitely more enjoyable for me. To my viewing, they're the Cadets in design and Broken Arrow was a poor example of Phantom or BAC or even Academy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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