2017 PREDICTIONS!

[BRASSO]

2 hours ago, corpsband said:

sloppy execution is perfectly capable of killing brilliant design.   

 True. And of course no poster on here has thought or posted otherwise. So this assessment comment is something I'd imagine we all should be able to agree with on here. Conversely, flawless execution by marchers is capable of being destroyed by sloppy Show Desgns.

 And I hate to pick on the 2016 Cadets here ( as I've loved many of their show designs )but to illustrate a point, the Cadets performers were doomed to non medal last season even before the bus that carried them to their 1st show cut the engines in the stadium parking lot. No matter how well the Cadets performers executed last season's show, they were doomed to a non medal.

 The Cavaliers medaled ( 3rd ) in 2011. Then fell to 8th in 2012. What happened with the placement fall in one season ? Did the 2012 Cavaliers not have the talent that the 2011 Cavs Corps did ? Not work as hard in the summer ? Not perform and execute their show as well as the 2011 Cavs marchers did ? I don't believe any of this is the reason for the placement fall. The Cavs from all reports had an experienced and mature Corps in 2012. There was no drop off in marcher talent in the Cavaliers between 2011 and 2012, no matter what anybody might try and spin for us here. Then why did the marchers in the Cavs drop 5 placement positions to finish 8th ? Well, it wasn't the marchers fault. The marchers performed and executed the 2012 show well, imo. Played the music well. Marched the show well. Guard was still as talented and could spin the rifles, and dance as well as the Cavs medal Corps could. The 2012 Cavs Corps marchers presumably worked as hard as all Cavs marchers do. What happened was that the Cavaliers lost their iconic Show Designer, Michael Gaines at the end of the medal season in 2011. The Cavs Show Design for 2012 paled to that of the Show Designs of Michel Gaines. Anybody that trys to tell us that the Cavs had a chance of medaling in 2012 if they " executed their show " is perhaps well meaning, but unfortunately they are helplessly naive, imo. Like the Cadets of last season, the Cavs talented marchers of 2012 were regrettably doomed to suffer major placement slide once it became apparent to one and all that the adult created Show Design was nowhere near as good as previous editions from the Corps. Even a perfectly executed sub par Show Design won't get you a cup of coffee come Championships, let alone place well... no matter what the apparently helplessly naive on here attempt to try and tell us otherwise regarding performance based " marcher execution ". 

 

Edited April 24, 2017 by BRASSO

[corpsband]

1 hour ago, BRASSO said:

 True. And of course no poster on here has thought or posted otherwise.  

 

1.  As usual you seem to know every thought of every poster.  

2. No one here has ever argued that bad design will trump perfect execution.

Let's bring this back to what was actually said instead of what you imagine you hear.

Bluecoats had  quite a bit of easy to identify dirt in their show.

IMO most years that dirt would have held them back from winning as --in the end -- two winning designs will always be separated by execution.

However the performer carried the day (just as the performer carried the day in '08) and forced judges to "ignore dirt" in favor of "undeniable effect".  In both cases that effect was generated by the performers on the field making a connection with the audience and "selling" the show at such a high level so as to overcome the ordinary reluctance to award a championship to a less than clean performance. (Interesting that it was the performers in both cases -- not the adults -- pushing their corps over the top)  My contention was that Bluecoats got a "pass" on execution and the video proves it.  But that is the exception -- not the rule.  

To support this claim I will list just two counter-examples:

1) The Blue Devils (who seem to never fail to execute) have won more than anyone.  What is the most common observation about most of those shows?   Undeniable excellence.  There might have been other "championship worthy" designs on the field but they (BD) were rewarded because they executed their design the best.

2) Carolina Crown.  Many posters here have stated "Crown '15 would have won but they had a bad run".   So execution cost a "winning design" a championship.  In fact many would say that all of Crown's 2^nd places were simply a matter of not executing cleanly enough.    As for percussion not holding them back,  the facts seem to contradict that statement.  Crown has a recent history of "overcoming" a perceived deficiency in percussion execution only by obtaining large enough margins in other captions.  

So to summarize:  it's not the design that wins shows.   A winning design merely creates the "potential".  Execution of that design is what earns medals.  Design + execution = championship. Sicut in principio, et nunc, et semper erit.

Edited April 24, 2017 by corpsband

[BRASSO]

31 minutes ago, corpsband said:

  

So to summarize:  it's not the design that wins shows.   A winning design merely creates the "potential".  Execution of that design is what earns medals.  Design + execution = championship. Sicut in principio, et nunc, et semper erit.

So what explains the Cavaliers fall from medaling in 2011 to 8th in 2012 ? The marchers of the Cavs in 2012, unlike their brethern in 2011, just did not execute their show design provided to them well enough to win a medal ?  Such a claim logically would mean the Cavs marchers of 2012 either were not as hard working,  or not as talented, or did not execute their show as well as the Cavs marchers did for a dozen years before them .. or some combination of these things. I don't think the Cavs marchers of 2012 were as responsible for that 5 places placement slide in one season as you apparently do. I lay the principal reason for the 5 placement placement slide in one season to primarily the adult created show design of 2012, not with primarily the talented marchers that were in the Cavaliers Corps in 2012. The marchers in the Cavs in 2012 were doomed by Memorial Day, imo, to fall below 4th place in 2012 for the first time in over a dozen years, no matter how well they would execute their 2012 show provided to them by the adults. Its understood that a well crafted show design can not garner its intended maximum potential if its not executed well by the marchers. But nobody is disagreeing with this, as near as we can tell. But no amount of perfectly executed marcher talent can save a Corps from a major placement slide. In every case in DCI history where a Corps has suffered multiple position slide in one season, behind the curtain we invariably find the loss of key staff or staffers as a principal reason for that placement slide.. not an immediate diminuation of marcher talent to execute their Corps shows.  if you disagree with this assessment, thats your perogative too, of course.

Edited April 24, 2017 by BRASSO

[corpsband]

11 minutes ago, BRASSO said:

So what explains the Cavaliers fall from medaling in 2011 to 8th in 2012 ? The marchers of the Cavs in 2012, unlike their brethern in 2011, just did not execute their show design provided to them well enough to win a medal ?  Such a claim logically would mean the Cavs marchers of 2012 either were not as hard working,  or not as talented, or did not execute their show as well as the Cavs marchers did .. or some combination of these things. I don't think the Cavs marchers of 2012 were as responsible for that 5 placement slide in one season as you apparently do. I lay the principal reason for the 5 placements slide in one season to primarily the adult created show design of 2012, not with primarily the talented marchers that were in the Cavaliers Corps in 2012. The marchers in the Cavs in 2012 were doomed by Memorial Day to fall below 4th place in 2012 for the first time in over a dozen years, no matter how well they would executed their 2012 show provided to them by the adults. if you disagree with this assessment, thats your perogative, of course.

again you're trying to dispute points no one has made.

where did i write that inferior design can be overcome by superior performance?  nowhere of course.  you're merely arguing with your imagination (as is always the case) "proving points" that no one has disputed.   

i will repeat it again:  design is merely a necessary pre-condition.  it is not a sufficient cause.

no one wins simply because the design is amazing.  the performers must bring the design to life.

Edited April 24, 2017 by corpsband

[BRASSO]

11 minutes ago, corpsband said:

 

where did i write that inferior design can be overcome by superior performance?  nowhere of course.  .

 Near as we can tell... nowhere... of course... lol!  I certainly never claimed you stated this above in any of my commentary either..... lol!!

Edited April 24, 2017 by BRASSO

[KVG_DC]

So this is the thread where the corpsband/brasso pissing contest moved. 

[BRASSO]

2 minutes ago, KVG_DC said:

So this is the thread where the corpsband/brasso pissing contest moved. 

 Kinda looks that way... for the moment anyway.. haha!

[corpsband]

4 minutes ago, BRASSO said:

 Near as we can tell... nowhere... of course... lol!  I certainly never claimed you stated this above in any of my commentary... lol!!!

actually you did imply that.  at the end of your long-winded post you said: 

21 minutes ago, BRASSO said:

So what explains ... if you disagree with this assessment, thats your perogative too, of course.

so you're imagining that somehow your reply was a riposte to my argument.

all this entire episode proves is that it's a complete waste of time replying to you because you have no idea what anyone is actually writing here;  you're simply answering the little voices in your head. 

i claim Bluecoats got a pass on dirt.  you say "no" but then launch into a meaningless diatribe about how poor design cannot be overcome by amazing execution.  it's a complete non sequitur and quickly returns you the "best left unread" file.  

4 minutes ago, KVG_DC said:

So this is the thread where the corpsband/brasso pissing contest moved. 

it's not even a pissing contest.  if it were , there would be some sort of rational exchange.  but this is literally pissing into a vacuum -- there's not really anyone there on the other side!  

[BRASSO]

Just now, corpsband said:

actually you did imply that.  at the end of your long-winded post you said: 

so you're imagining that somehow your reply was a riposte to my argument.

all this entire episode proves is that it's a complete waste of time replying to you because you have no idea what anyone is actually writing here;  you're simply answering the little voices in your head. 

i claim Bluecoats got a pass on dirt.  you say "no" but then launch into a meaningless diatribe about how poor design cannot be overcome by amazing execution.  it's a complete non sequitur and quickly returns you the "best left unread" file.  

it's not even a pissing contest.  if it were , there would be some sort of rational exchange.  but this is literally pissing into a vacuum -- there's not really anyone there on the other side!  

 LOL!!!...  And there we have it.. in all its glory of insults.  As such, this really needs nothing more than a " no reply " from me, and so we move on. I learned my lesson.. and I'm not taking this trolls bait anymore.

[corpsband]

7 minutes ago, BRASSO said:

 LOL!!!...  And there we have it.. in all its glory of insults.  As such, this really needs nothing more than a " no reply " from me, and so we move on. I learned my lesson.. and I'm not taking this trolls bait anymore.

if you never press reply to another one of my posts, the world will be a better place.

so do the right thing and keep talking with yourself.