Caption Awards

[RedJazz1900]

See poll -- how do you prefer the caption awards are determined? Feel free to elaborate in the thread.

Edited August 14, 2016 by RedJazz1900

[RedJazz1900]

The poll went away... :( I'll try it again....???

[RedJazz1900]

Ok, it's back...

[cowtown]

They need to average the scores to mitigate the effect of the bad judges. Too many of the judges are in the industry and their money so therefore, their politics become the score.

[RickCogley]

It's unfortunate they had to institute an averaging system like this for caption awards, to mitigate blatant judge biases.

[mfrontz]

Never mind.

[Tad_MMA]

In the past, there were more numbers per caption. In the later "tick" years, build-up analysis was part of the drum/brass scores. Once DCI scrapped the tick system, there were 3 GE numbers and two numbers in Vis/Brass/Perc (Field & Ensemble). In 1988/89, there were three GE numbers and three Performance numbers (V/B/P)---instead of averaging the performance numbers (there was a GE trophy), they added IN GE (not a good way to do it. e.g., SCV won the GE award in 1988. Despite Garfield having CLEARLY the best drumline (both nights), the GE number (already part of a trophy) was added in, thus giving Drums to SCV. (In 1985, BD won drums under a different system...add in GE and Garfield wins it. See? Inconsistent through the years.)

Frankly, the John Brazale Visual Award should be the average of Vis Proficiency AND Analysis, like in the old days of Field + Ensemble = Trophy. Now, the Music Analysis Award can't really go with just brass or percussion, as it encompasses both. Maybe a separate award there?

They need to average the scores to mitigate the effect of the bad judges. Too many of the judges are in the industry and their money so therefore, their politics become the score.

"bad judges?" Come on. They have FAR more training than anyone reading this board. Do you honestly think that (I'm picking the biggest variant of the week here) W. Chumley awoke Saturday thinking, "How can I give Guard to BD?" Really? Is Bret Mascaro a "bad judge" for ranking Bloo FIRST in Visual Proficiency? After all, they didn't get that Thur or Fri---and the experts of DCP (in the LOS stands or watching from home) were crabbing about Bloo not being clean. Mascaro has been on the field for over 20 years. The guy knows his stuff.

It's unfortunate they had to institute an averaging system like this for caption awards, to mitigate blatant judge biases.

"blatant judge biases?" By whom? I'm sure there are biases in terms of taste and how it relates to the sheets. After Crown smoked BD in Guard Thursday (0.3 is smoking BD this decade), I had two VERY knowledgeable Guard people tell me BD was better (they weren't watching on a computer screen, either). This is why there isn't an 11-person panel solely for Championship week. We are LUCKY to get 33 different opinions in Indy. The bottom line: it's SUBJECTIVE, and we accept that. We have to. What's the alternative? The more negative tick system where each mistake drops a tenth of point? Even during the TICK years, one judge might see a borderline mistake and let it go; the next knocks off that tenth. Ask 1978 Phantom Regiment how THAT worked out for them.

Edited August 14, 2016 by Tad_MMA

[jwillis35]

It's not that they have to off-set the "bad judges," because I think our judges are really good; but they do have to off-set variance of opinion and/or someone having an off night.

For example: Crown has had the best brass this season. That played out most of the season. They were only beat a few times. At finals they won brass Thursday and Saturday, with Bluecoats winning brass on Friday. So Crown still wins the caption.

Crown won guard thursday and friday, but BD popped a big number on saturday (19.9). Had BD won on another night as well they would be guard champions. But it goes to Crown.

I think the averages tend to favor the more consistent section, and often the section that was on average the best through the season.

So yes, averages are, to me, better for caption awards. For final score and placement however it's about what you do that night.

[garfield]

In the past, there were more numbers per caption. In the later "tick" years, build-up analysis was part of the drum/brass scores. Once DCI scrapped the tick system, there were 3 GE numbers and two numbers in Vis/Brass/Perc (Field & Ensemble). In 1988/89, there were three GE numbers and three Performance numbers (V/B/P)---instead of averaging the performance numbers (there was a GE trophy), they added IN GE (not a good way to do it. e.g., SCV won the GE award in 1988. Despite Garfield having CLEARLY the best drumline (both nights), the GE number (already part of a trophy) was added in, thus giving Drums to SCV. (In 1985, BD won drums under a different system...add in GE and Garfield wins it. See? Inconsistent through the years.)

Frankly, the John Brazale Visual Award should be the average of Vis Proficiency AND Analysis, like in the old days of Field + Ensemble = Trophy. Now, the Music Analysis Award can't really go with just brass or percussion, as it encompasses both. Maybe a separate award there?

"bad judges?" Come on. They have FAR more training than anyone reading this board. Do you honestly think that (I'm picking the biggest variant of the week here) W. Chumley awoke Saturday thinking, "How can I give Guard to BD?" Really? Is Bret Mascaro a "bad judge" for ranking Bloo FIRST in Visual Proficiency? After all, they didn't get that Thur or Fri---and the experts of DCP (in the LOS stands or watching from home) were crabbing about Bloo not being clean. Mascaro has been on the field for over 20 years. The guy knows his stuff.

"blatant judge biases?" By whom? I'm sure there are biases in terms of taste and how it relates to the sheets. After Crown smoked BD in Guard Thursday (0.3 is smoking BD this decade), I had two VERY knowledgeable Guard people tell me BD was better (they weren't watching on a computer screen, either). This is why there isn't an 11-person panel solely for Championship week. We are LUCKY to get 33 different opinions in Indy. The bottom line: it's SUBJECTIVE, and we accept that. We have to. What's the alternative? The more negative tick system where each mistake drops a tenth of point? Even during the TICK years, one judge might see a borderline mistake and let it go; the next knocks off that tenth. Ask 1978 Phantom Regiment how THAT worked out for them.

I appreciate your post and thoughts, and maybe this is worthy of its own thread instead of derailing this one, but I do think that all judges, to eliminate any impression of favoritism, should be required to post their CV and whether they:

1 currently provide services, work, or products to any corps they are judging

2. have, in the past, provided services, work, or products to any corps they are judging, or

3. have any connection to any corps via staff, alum-status, students, etc.

The antiseptic of full disclosure is the only real way to rid the activity of the nepotism and favoritism that you say doesn't exist. (I want to believe you are correct, but I'm not convinced...yet... that there isn't a "club" a corps must join in order to get impartial panels.)

(Adjusts tin-foil hat.)

[Tad_MMA]

I appreciate your post and thoughts, and maybe this is worthy of its own thread instead of derailing this one, but I do think that all judges, to eliminate any impression of favoritism, should be required to post their CV and whether they:

1 currently provide services, work, or products to any corps they are judging

2. have, in the past, provided services, work, or products to any corps they are judging, or

3. have any connection to any corps via staff, alum-status, students, etc.

The antiseptic of full disclosure is the only real way to rid the activity of the nepotism and favoritism that you say doesn't exist. (I want to believe you are correct, but I'm not convinced...yet... that there isn't a "club" a corps must join in order to get impartial panels.)

(Adjusts tin-foil hat.)

As in Jay Kennedy who used to write for Boston? I know of one WGI judge who teaches non-music at a CA HS. He never judges that HS. Heck, DCI's Artistic Director (an unpaid position) designs uniforms for half the field. And what is CV?