SCV and BD in top 2...really?!!

[cowtown]

50 minutes ago, Cappybara said:

Not quite. There is a disagreement on what is happening. There are some people who believe that the body movements are easier than marching, others the opposite. I would describe that as a disagreement of what is happening on the field, no? 

What is pretty obvious is what is being more highly rewarded. 

and why is it being more highly rewarded? 

Both style have their challenges, neither is being done very well by most corps

There is an inherit stupidity and laziness in wanting to WGI drum corps because viewing a gym floor is the same as a football field?

 

[ThePlanets]

2 hours ago, BDCorno said:

Well, you have to admit that the current discussion actually has something to talk about. OP's original point was "RIGGED!". Not much to talk about. I guess after the discussion metamorphed (lol good one, stealing) into a non-tinfoil hat discourse, he lost interest quickly. As for your points about body shaping, it's the less obvious stuff that is giving BD the credit. Really can't explain it well, you kind of have to see it up close. If you're at Indy, BD will be rehearsing about a quarter mile west of Military Park at IUPUI. Check it out if you get a chance. It's hard to get perspective on many things, in terms of velocity (which they still have some work to do in some areas of the program), pace and the movement vocabulary of the program. I'm not downplaying anyone else here...just staying on the BD topic. Despite all the conspiracy theories and such, corps generally get scored properly (with some slight variances), and for good reasons. At the highest levels, everyone is really good, so the details are what separates the groups...and those details aren't seen on video in many cases.

Please search YouTube and find/watch the high cam video posted there of 2016 BD at finals. After you watch, I think you'll find that BD marches quite a bit, some of the stuff very difficult and performed very well. The premise that "it is their signature to do body movements rather than march" is largely a fallacy. I do realize that this season is a bit different, but knowing Jay and the creative process BD uses, there will be plenty of "drill" there by Indy.

I had the privilege of watching BD rehearsal in 2014 after it was already speculated to be the highest scoring show ever.  I am not trying to downplay their technique.  

I may have misconstrued my point because I was frustrated about the suggestion of marching at it's highest and fastest level is easier than incorporation of body movements to music. I think that both have varying degrees of difficulty. Fast marching has a big impact on your brain and body.

The difference I see is if you hit a formation wrong while marching it is likely only visual that suffers.  If you perform a body movement incorrectly while playing the music can suffer to (see emPHAsis on the wrong sylLABle)

Edited August 1, 2017 by ThePlanets

[BDCorno]

1 hour ago, cowtown said:

 

 

In an attempt to make your point, you hit on several things that counter your point. From the seats most people read drill, just the nature of the distribution of bodies in a stadium. I don’t think BD’s style is very effective past 20 rows up and gets lost in the 600 level at Indy where the only read is drill. It should be a consideration on the sheets, to play to the entire stadium even though clearly it’s not. 

Given a choice, I’m a high camera viewer, BD 2016 and Bluecoats were not good high-cam viewing. As for Blast, I really hated it and it played out and is now dead, may want to re-think the future. It was an awful, awful, tedious show.

These seem like minor quibbles but a lot boils down to who are the corps designing the shows for? Clearly the judges and DVD’s. So of course the fans react.because the live audience is getting screwed, you sit down low to see the visuals and you get the amp blast so the sound sucks. You sit up-top and the visuals no-longer work and if you’re in a dome, the sound sucks even worse, more so if they blast the amps through the PA. IMO, Drum corps is a live event, and the fans in the stands are being ignored, abused and held in contempt by designers that have lost their way and are having the judges lead them into the abyss 

 

All valid points. At the end of the day...despite the pleas of the crowd...corps play to the judges. It's a competitive activity and that's sort of the lay of the land. I understand your positions. 

[denverjohn]

4 hours ago, jwillis35 said:

I think if Bloo cleans the feet

Jillis35, I have always appreciated your analysis on a number of topics over the years. I would appreciate your take on my observation this year. One thing I would like to posit is that we may be at a crossroads regarding our definitions of just what "cleans the feet" means. I have spoken with high level staff who tell me "we don't march". Back in the day sheets reflected an "IGA" component which reflected a precise "step/body carriage/posture/knee bend/arm angle/step-off/heel angle" aspect to it. One can still find remnants of marching "technique" in the SCV/Cavies "float"step, Cadets right-leg/lock-knee technique. With 50% or more of some shows being devoted to lunges, squats, swaying, jazz-running, etc. there seems to be a de-emphasis on a precise "step technique". Field "spacing" (dots) are still being addressed, as is timing from dot-to-dot. However, the uniformity of body carriage and step techniques appears to be "no big whoop" these days. BD has been very conscious to " lock in" the step technique in the "old-skool" intro and their block formations. I notice at many rehearsals (many corps at all levels) that shoulder alignments, upper & lower body shifts, etc. are not addressed as much as in the past. Watch individuals in many corps as they move in "follow-the-leader" patterns. Look at where the horns are (if not playing). Look at hips. Look at shoulders. I appreciate the intent of "swaggering" out-of step while transitioning. The time allocated to prop movement on the field also adds to "out-of step" movement on the field out of neccesity. Members can't "march" the props around the field at high rates of speed. It make sense that if a "marching technique" is only "one skill set" of a larger host of potential visual choices that less time is now being devoted to it.

On another note, I don't know how credit is derived from the excellence or lack thereof from prerecorded professionals (Beyonce, Beiber) vs. live amateur vocalist marching members. Each aural experience influences in a similar fashion but one is "Memorex". How many instrument qualified judges possess vocal training and where is that credited on the sheets in a detailed manner?

Edited August 1, 2017 by denverjohn
spelling

[MikeRapp]

1 hour ago, ThePlanets said:

I had the privilege of watching BD rehearsal in 2014 after it was already speculated to be the highest scoring show ever.  I am not trying to downplay their technique.  

I may have misconstrued my point because I was frustrated about the suggestion of marching at it's highest and fastest level is easier than incorporation of body movements to music. I think that both have varying degrees of difficulty. Fast marching has a big impact on your brain and body.

The difference I see is if you hit a formation wrong while marching it is likely only visual that suffers.  If you perform a body movement incorrectly while playing the music can suffer to (see emPHAsis on the wrong sylLABle)

I get what you are saying here. But really, marching with a raccoon on your head would be ###### near impossible in terms of difficulty. But we don't yet have corps using live animals in shows, so it would be pointless to do this.

It is very clear to me, after following this activity for many years, that DCI absolutely does take a very direct role in what a drum corps show should be. They do, after all, provide extremely detailed guidelines as to how judges should score the shows.

The move to nonlinear drill was mind blowing at one point, and then it became cool and dci provided guidelines on how to best judge it. Now all corps do it because the sheets require it. 

The move to more dramatic performance techniques was unheard of in dci until blue Devils did it. Dci decided to accommodate this direction by changing the sheets to reward those techniques. Body movement, to that point, was largely defined by how consistently all members of the corps did the precise same thing. Now all corps do individualized body movement. Why? Because the sheets now require it.

Electronics is next on the list. Right now most corps do not emphasize this, but when dci starts scoring it, they will all do it. Because that's what the sheets require.

DCI is nothing more than the sum of its member corps. The member corps directors do in fact decide what dci allows by defining how things are scored. I always hear how this is harder than you think, or that is much more difficult to do than this. But the reality is, it's all ###### near impossible! It's not about what is hard to do or teach, its how dci wants the activity to evolve. And in the end, the corps directors will determine this and reflect their preferences in the sheets.

[Treefidy]

@Cappybara

You tagged me in a post of the Blue Devils show to give me an example of the difficulty. What I noticed in the video you provided is that the guy recording (or anyone in the recording for that matter) was NEVER even close to very winded (not even at the end). Perhaps it's because 2 minutes of the show he is either sitting or standing on the staircase. Perhaps it's because there are only about four bursts of him moving at a 4 to 5 pace. Perhaps it's because 2 minutes of the show are strictly him doing rudimentary, fluid, body movements.

I couldn't tell you for sure. What I can tell you, is he had no problem yelling things like "Have a Good show," "Oh look, here's Brian" and "Get it Casey" with perfect clarity...

In the name of research, I went ahead and watched some POV cam videos from other corps over the year (2016 SCV, BC, Crown, etc) At the end of the video, they were considerably MORE out of breath than the members in BD video which you posted. It's not even close... This does not puzzle me.

I am not calling BD's show less difficult to choreograph, and it's definitely not less difficult musically, but what it is, a strategically and masterfully designed blob of skills both difficult and easy, designed to set the kids up to win the judges sheets. It's designed to make the kids work and then rest, then work, then rest. Obviously the judges find this extremely effective.

Test my theory, go watch the videos...

 

Edited August 1, 2017 by Treefidy

[Cappybara]

2 hours ago, MikeRapp said:

I get what you are saying here. But really, marching with a raccoon on your head would be ###### near impossible in terms of difficulty. But we don't yet have corps using live animals in shows, so it would be pointless to do this.

It is very clear to me, after following this activity for many years, that DCI absolutely does take a very direct role in what a drum corps show should be. They do, after all, provide extremely detailed guidelines as to how judges should score the shows.

The move to nonlinear drill was mind blowing at one point, and then it became cool and dci provided guidelines on how to best judge it. Now all corps do it because the sheets require it. 

The move to more dramatic performance techniques was unheard of in dci until blue Devils did it. Dci decided to accommodate this direction by changing the sheets to reward those techniques. Body movement, to that point, was largely defined by how consistently all members of the corps did the precise same thing. Now all corps do individualized body movement. Why? Because the sheets now require it.

Electronics is next on the list. Right now most corps do not emphasize this, but when dci starts scoring it, they will all do it. Because that's what the sheets require.

DCI is nothing more than the sum of its member corps. The member corps directors do in fact decide what dci allows by defining how things are scored. I always hear how this is harder than you think, or that is much more difficult to do than this. But the reality is, it's all ###### near impossible! It's not about what is hard to do or teach, its how dci wants the activity to evolve. And in the end, the corps directors will determine this and reflect their preferences in the sheets.

Well of course DCI takes an active role in what drum corps should be. DCI = every single corps out there. Every corps agrees to what they want and don't want on the sheets 

[Kamarag]

1 hour ago, Treefidy said:

ot calling BD's show less difficult to choreograph, and it's definitely not less difficult musically, but what it is, a strategically and masterfully designed blob of skills both difficult and easy, designed to set the kids up to win the judges sheets. It's designed to make the kids work and then rest, then work, then rest. Obviously the judges find this extremely effective.

 

Sounds like incredibly smart design to me. Thanks for finally realizing and crediting it for what it actually is.

[Treefidy]

11 minutes ago, Cappybara said:

Well of course DCI takes an active role in what drum corps should be. DCI = every single corps out there. Every corps agrees to what they want and don't want on the sheets 

Although, the way it is judged is subjective.Mostly leaning toward body movements = huge GE, when they are relatively easier demand and physicality wise. As I and your video have proven. As another poster said, they also only translate well from certain perspectives.

[Treefidy]

15 minutes ago, Kamarag said:

Sounds like incredibly smart design to me. Thanks for finally realizing and crediting it for what it actually is.

Smart design in relevance to the sheets and BD fans. Not nearly as difficult or effective as credit being given.