GUARDLING Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 11 minutes ago, MikeRapp said: It took me a couple of really serious DCI seasons to come to some terms about DCI scoring. It's a unique scoring system with very unique goals and parameters. You can wrongly look at every show's score in a vaccuum (which we all do) and and draw conclusions. But the reality of the system is that the goal is to get the very last rankings correct. You cannot compare scores from one season to the next, or even at some level one show to the next—except that DCI judges are working under terms that require them to make sure the corps land in the "right" order at the end of the season. Given that the max score is 100, this means that starting and ending scores are almost solely the product of judges trying, as a group, to make sure things end where the should. Unfortunately there are unintended consequences of this. One is that it is functionally impossible for a corps to climb much during the season. Every night you start where you were before. Shows do not ever stand on their own merit. Given that scores start in the 60s and 70s—as opposed to zero—and the season only lasts two or so months, the very general rankings of corps are already largely set on Day 1. You can call that collusion or lack of fairness, but it's the system DCI has adopted. 3 100 % correct. Many years ago a winter circuit I competed in decided to get away from this....Groups went as low as a 20 for a score even the best starting in the 50s. Well, you can bet that approach didn't last long...lol People get all hung up on numbers which don't mean much. Placements and some cases spreads only matter. A perfect score in any caption does not mean perfect, yet it comes up every year 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeRapp Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 4 hours ago, GUARDLING said: 100 % correct. Many years ago a winter circuit I competed in decided to get away from this....Groups went as low as a 20 for a score even the best starting in the 50s. Well, you can bet that approach didn't last long...lol People get all hung up on numbers which don't mean much. Placements and some cases spreads only matter. A perfect score in any caption does not mean perfect, yet it comes up every year I hate to break it to you but we are all at some level being played by DCI. They have a wholly vested interest in keeping Corps close together and making incremental “improvements” from show to show. I love drum corps, but the more I watch and participate the less I feel like scores are what we are led to think they are. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluzes Posted July 19, 2018 Author Share Posted July 19, 2018 28 minutes ago, MikeRapp said: I hate to break it to you but we are all at some level being played by DCI. They have a wholly vested interest in keeping Corps close together and making incremental “improvements” from show to show. I love drum corps, but the more I watch and participate the less I feel like scores are what we are led to think they are. Exactly, but I do not think it's a bad thing and may be the only way to keep this buildup scoring method in check. In other words if I was asked to control things statistically I would predetermine the scores across the board for each caption and let the judges fill in who gets what score. That is fair and we wouldn't need to explain away the peer level agreement anomaly by making mental giants out of the judges. I don't need to know what's in play but don't think I am off base. What triggered me was the Olathe program booklet saying we judge in a vacuum but common sense indicates something else is driving scores. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeRapp Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 Just now, Bluzes said: Exactly, but I do not think it's a bad thing and may be the only way to keep this buildup scoring method in check. In other words if I was asked to control things statistically I would predetermine the scores across the board for each caption and let the judges fill in who gets what score. That is fair and we wouldn't need to explain away the peer level agreement anomaly by making mental giants out of the judges. I don't need to know what's in play but don't think I am off base. What triggered me was the Olathe program booklet saying we judge in a vacuum but common sense indicates something else is driving scores. DCI scores in a very, very closed system that is, to be honest, unlike anything else I have ever encountered. Imagine if every football game had a max score of 100, and teams started out with scores of 60-70 largely based on how they did last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluzes Posted July 19, 2018 Author Share Posted July 19, 2018 11 minutes ago, MikeRapp said: Imagine if every football game had a max score of 100, I am not trying to find out any trade secrets or implying there are any and will chalk this up to my imagination. Speaking of football we experience what happens when the cameramen don't have a ball to follow every show. Still haven't see Boston's Found yet on FLO either they pull away to quick or are showing the flame at the end that we already see it too much of already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedj2002 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 (edited) On 7/17/2018 at 8:30 PM, FTNK said: All I know is that judges have zero objectivity. Was teaching a band in 2009 and a judge—big time, multiple DCI finals judge—paid us a visit and basically said that Blue Devils were the best at everything and he would never score certain other corps well because he didn’t like how they did drill. So 1 judge speaking to your high school band(?) program used the recipient of most DCI Championships as an example of being "best"? Perhaps his message was lost in his delivery. Perhaps your bias clouded his message? A judge doesn't necessarily have the pedigree to "teach". My takeaway from your post is 1 judge became all judges...I am not arguing your concern, just the absoluteness of the statement. I suggest you listen to the judging critiques posted on youtube. Listening to them, especially percussion has made me a more educated instructor/judge AND fan. Edited July 19, 2018 by whitedj2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FTNK Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 1 minute ago, whitedj2002 said: So 1 judge speaking to your high school band(?) program used the recipient of most DCI Championships as an example of being "best"? Perhaps his message was lost in his delivery. Perhaps your bias clouded his message? A judge doesn't necessary have the pedigree to "teach". My takeaway from your post is 1 judge became all judges...I am not arguing your concern, just the absoluteness of the statement. I suggest you listen to the judging critiques posted on youtube. Listening to them, especially percussion has made me a more educated instructor/judge AND fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedj2002 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 (edited) 52 minutes ago, FTNK said: , My intent wasn't to preach or being judgmental. I too have been in your position and wanted the best for my students. I was just trying to see the disconnect. I pour over our judges tapes and try to put the lesson in the competitive season for my kids. Sorry, as I reread my post I realized I made you cry... Edited July 19, 2018 by whitedj2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cappybara Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 11 minutes ago, whitedj2002 said: My intent wasn't to preach or being judgmental. I too have been in your position and wanted the best for my students. I was just trying to see the disconnect. I pour over our judges tapes and try to put the lesson in the competitive season for my kids. Sorry, as I reread my post I realized I made you cry... That’s actually a laughing emoji Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedj2002 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 2 minutes ago, Cappybara said: That’s actually a laughing emoji Thanks for the "schoolin" I wonder how many times I've misinterpreted others...(not losing sleep over it) <insert righteous indignation here> Have a good one Cappy, I do enjoy your commentary btw... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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