garfield Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 46 minutes ago, cfirwin3 said: <snip> Next up... We will go through a lengthy discussion where everyone clarifies their position. Another day on DCP. Nope, I've made my position pretty clear: The electronic "solutions" that we're now discussing are a direct result of introducing electronics to the activity. There were no problems inherent in the analog activity that needed fixing. Electronics were introduced to provide creative capacity because designers wanted them and, to this day all these years later, here we are discussing the opinions of many that the sound still sucks with Goo and, worse, electronics are being used as a creative tool to distinguish between performances. All while distinctly BAD use of electronics does not draw a "tic". Maybe "summary" is a better description than "clarifying" as if originally unclear. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldSnareDrummer Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 3 minutes ago, ftwdrummer said: Suppose that there was a corps that featured a soloist for half the show--carrying the entire melody for the bulk of that period, etc. Say it's a guitarist--something like Southwind last year. I'd ask for my money back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cfirwin3 Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 (edited) 59 minutes ago, cixelsyd said: ...Not long after passage, judges (some of whom are paid endorsers for the manufacturers of the new device) suddenly decide, as a community, that the new "option" is the preferred sound. Corps who use it get additional credit over corps who do not. This forces every competitive corps to adopt the device. In the wrealm of opinion v. facts... THIS should be called out because it assigns motive and action to multiple parties on the pure assumption of conspiracy rather than verification. It remains that other (more likely, non conspiratorial) motives exist, explaining the addoption of various techniques. What hasn't been mentioned in this discussion about a charge to 'sameness' is the fact that electronic usage is quite varied. Apart from the use of sub bass (which they all do differently) and the use of general amplification (mostly for staged solos), the configurations, filtering effects, sample usage, etc. is vastly different show to show and year to year. That observation alone steps all over the conspiratorial perspective that contending depends on sameness. Gear costs money... but techniques cost nothing. Some corps are getting big bang for their buck on the gear end. If you want to talk money, what they are paying for is design, instruction and recruitment camp facility and calendar strategies. That is where the financial disparities lie (that is what shows up on the sheets)... It's not in electrodes and diodes. In 2001, the top 4 had Bb horns. But that isn't what made them the top 4 (they already were and the prior year 1 corps tied for 1st on a G line among 2 Bb). The Bluecoats started out-electric-ing everybody when they were in 7th place. And they hung there for a long time. It isn't their electronics that won in 2016, or put them in good standing now. It's not necessarily everything else BUT electronics either. It's about being good on the sheets in all things. Always and forever. Edited August 8, 2019 by cfirwin3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cfirwin3 Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 7 minutes ago, garfield said: Nope, I've made my position pretty clear: The electronic "solutions" that we're now discussing are a direct result of introducing electronics to the activity. There were no problems inherent in the analog activity that needed fixing. Electronics were introduced to provide creative capacity because designers wanted them and, to this day all these years later, here we are discussing the opinions of many that the sound still sucks with Goo and, worse, electronics are being used as a creative tool to distinguish between performances. All while distinctly BAD use of electronics does not draw a "tic". Maybe "summary" is a better description than "clarifying" as if originally unclear. ...everyone... but garfield. There, I clarified my position. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Corps Guy Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 (edited) My position remains the same, just as others. Some music is not being performed on the field. This music is being produced by musicians in studios and projected through the electronic tools of today. I thought this was a performance activity that is performed by students under a certain age. We now have professional musicians recording music that is played back on the field. As for my go back of faux metronome, I will say again, anything that was pre-recorded never varies in tempo. Metronomes are not legal in this activity during a competitive performance. We have two issues outside of effects/goo/spoken word. Music that is pre-recorded by professional musicians most likely over the maximum age of the activity. Tempo being locked in place by pre-recorded music. Prove me wrong on either of these two items. Edited August 8, 2019 by Old Corps Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cfirwin3 Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Old Corps Guy said: My position remains the same, just as others. Some music is not being performed on the field. This music is being produced by musicians in studios and projected through the electronic tools of today. I thought this was a performance activity that is performed by students under a certain age. We now have professional musicians recording music that is played back on the field. As for my go back of faux metronome, I will say again, anything that was pre-recorded never varies in tempo. Metronomes are not legal in this activity during a competitive performance. We have two issues outside of effects/goo/spoken word. Music that is pre-recorded by professional musicians most likely over the maximum age of the activity. Tempo being locekd in place by pre-recorded music. Prove me wrong on either of these items. What is the purpose and use of the sample? As a sample has a static tempo, is it actually utilized as a metronome for musical performance or is it segregated as an atmospheric element over visual? Which music performance achievement category credits the professional work in the sample... brass, percussion or music analysis? You have to conclude on those things before I'll buy in to the premise. Not hypothetically but with examples... this is DCP, it's mostly okay to name names here. Edited August 8, 2019 by cfirwin3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Corps Guy Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, cfirwin3 said: What is the purpose and use of the sample? As a sample has a static tempo, is it actually utilized as a metronome for musical performance or is it segregated as an atmospheric element over visual? Which music performance achievement category credits the professional work in the sample... brass, percussion or music analysis? You have to conclude on those things before I'll buy in to the premise. Not hypothetically but with examples... this is DCP, it's mostly okay to name names here. Examples are extremely easy. Music that is pre-recorded by professional musicians most likely over the maximum age of the activity. For "pre-recorded" music, we need to go no further than the top scoring corps right now (your corps based on your logo). The show opens with professionally recorded "Strawberry Fields." Were these musicians under the max age and corps members in the studio? 2. Tempo being locked in place by pre-recorded music. We have a corps that is using pre-recorded "Drum-Speak" along with their playing in a drum break this year that is also competing for a medal. The drum speak is pre-recorded with a locked tempo. Edited August 8, 2019 by Old Corps Guy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitar1974 Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 16 hours ago, MarimbaManiac said: I would counter that amplifying the brass isn't about volume (with exception of the soloists), but instead it's about quality of sound. Here is where I am stuck when it comes to the current state of A&E. At what point does it seem silly to continue to have a true competitive comparison between corps when there is a vast difference in ability to control and manipulate sound. A LOT of soloists are highly processed with reverb/delay/chorusing etc. Their sound is so buffed and polished that it seems silly to score it, the technology is greatly enhancing it. Technology enables to pitch correct real time, and sweeten the sound an incredible amount. Go to any pop concert- do you think they really sound like that without all the added technology? We have all come to accept computer enhanced music and images as the norm now, I guess it is logical for drum corps to follow suit. I love Bloos show this year but it does bother me to think that much of it relies on artificial technology, tracks, and A&E effects. Are we to a point where it is goofy to keep "judging" them and just let it be a free-for-all field show? Once technology becomes a big contributor then the competitive element is corrupted IMO. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cfirwin3 Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 Which performance achievement category is crediting the overlay of "Strawberry Fields" with point value, brass, percussion or music analysis? Is the syllabic chant (it might be Takadimi) setting the tempo and dictating the start of the passage (which is what a metronome does)... or is it a timed overlay that in istelf could be screwed up. Are they cuing the sample(s) via a performer at cut phrases? What element actually dictates the other? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Corps Guy Posted August 8, 2019 Share Posted August 8, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, cfirwin3 said: Which performance achievement category is crediting the overlay of "Strawberry Fields" with point value, brass, percussion or music analysis? Is the syllabic chant (it might be Takadimi) setting the tempo and dictating the start of the passage (which is what a metronome does)... or is it a timed overlay that in istelf could be screwed up. Are they cuing the sample(s) via a performer at cut phrases? What element actually dictates the other? I still go back to this being a "Performance" based activity. The GE is where you see the credit for your "Strawberry Fields" sample. Remember, I said "two different" items. You appear to be trying to melt the two into one. Edited August 8, 2019 by Old Corps Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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