What would you think if...

[Glenn426]

5 minutes ago, Guitar1974 said:

Here is where I am stuck when it comes to the current state of A&E. At what point does it seem silly to continue to have a true competitive comparison between corps when there is a vast difference in ability to control and manipulate sound.  A LOT of soloists are highly processed with reverb/delay/chorusing etc.  Their sound is so buffed and polished that it seems silly to score it, the technology is greatly enhancing it. Technology enables to pitch correct real time, and sweeten the sound an incredible amount.  Go to any pop concert- do you think they really sound like that without all the added technology?  We have all come to accept computer enhanced music and images as the norm now, I guess it is logical for drum corps to follow suit.  I love Bloos show this year but it does bother me to think that much of it relies on artificial technology, tracks, and A&E effects.  Are we to a point where it is goofy to keep "judging" them and just let it be a free-for-all field show?  Once technology becomes a big contributor then the competitive element is corrupted IMO.

This is an important conversation to have, because we are soon to be at a crossroads where the activity can continue to be a competitive competition and all elements are judged or we just start to attend DCI to be Entertained by Professional musicians and Sound and Design and Production companies. 

DCI I would imagine want the production Value and quality of entertainment for its paying audience to go up and up.. So that it can start to charge more for its product and have a valid comparison between a Cirque show and a DCI show... 

Imagine Judging between two Cirque shows "O" and "Beatles Love" how could you judge Art? Living Breathing Art...

The Judging aspect seems silly because you are paying to be entertained... Not to be judged... 

On the other hand the competition is what drives this activity. It what makes these staffs and performers wake up every morning to strive for perfection... If you remove the competition, what is the motivation for the summer long tour?

I personally want the quality of the DCI productions to keep on going up and up. DCI should be closer to modern Broadway or  Cirque levels of quality and entertainment.. Not a Marching Band show... 

[cfirwin3]

Just now, Old Corps Guy said:

I still go back to this being a "Performance" based activity.  The GE is where you see the credit for your "Strawberry Fields" sample. 

Remember, I said "two different" items.  You appear to be trying to melt the two into one.

The two different items overlap because they both deal with music attributes presumably being dictated by an outside force (as the accusation goes).

When we deal with samples as an impact on GE (and you are right to say so) we are divorcing it from the original accusation which is about the quality of technical performance (which is accounted for elsewhere on the sheet).  GE is adjudicating design and the effectiveness of the communication in delivering the design.  Certainly, quality performance can and does influence that to a degree, but the value is really given for the design itself.  As the caption insists, these issues are quite general.

On the drum front, I think that you would find that they are laying multiple samples that are cued by their live performance (not the other way around).  The tempo there is established prior to the feature... so the sample (however it exists) can't be the source of timing or togetherness.  The sample actually has to be matched (a job that I certainly wouldn't want).

[Old Corps Guy]

1 minute ago, cfirwin3 said:

The two different items overlap because they both deal with music attributes presumably being dictated by an outside force (as the accusation goes).

When we deal with samples as an impact on GE (and you are right to say so) we are divorcing it from the original accusation which is about the quality of technical performance (which is accounted for elsewhere on the sheet).  GE is adjudicating design and the effectiveness of the communication in delivering the design.  Certainly, quality performance can and does influence that to a degree, but the value is really given for the design itself.  As the caption insists, these issues are quite general.

On the drum front, I think that you would find that they are laying multiple samples that are cued by their live performance (not the other way around).  The tempo there is established prior to the feature... so the sample (however it exists) can't be the source of timing or togetherness.  The sample actually has to be matched (a job that I certainly wouldn't want).

As both of us are Composer/Arrangers (You, far better than me) I can appreciate the layering as you mentioned regarding timing.  It is extremely difficult for the musicians on the field to match pre-recorded tempos.  This was on full display at the first entrance of the brass for Bluecoats in Allentown.  They did an amazing job at recovering after a couple of bars of being off ever so slightly.

As for the pre-recorded samples by professional musicians, the performers on the field are exactly that, performers.  They are under a certain age and perform live.  Pre-recorded tracks were done in studios, most likely by professional musicians over the minimum age in this activity, that did several takes before they locked down every aspect of the track. 

This is a performance based activity that is judged by what is performed on the field on any given night.  When you add pre-recorded professional musicians, you take away from the live performance of the students on the field.

[Eleran]

3 minutes ago, Old Corps Guy said:

Pre-recorded tracks were done in studios, most likely by professional musicians over the minimum age in this activity, that did several takes before they locked down every aspect of the track. 

which tracks were professionally balanced by sound engineers in the studio ... can't forget THAT part!

[Old Corps Guy]

Just now, Eleran said:

which tracks were professionally balanced by sound engineers in the studio ... can't forget THAT part!

You must be a sound engineer!   I stand corrected and should give props back to the sound engineers as well in the studio.

[Eleran]

Just now, Old Corps Guy said:

You must be a sound engineer!   I stand corrected and should give props back to the sound engineers as well in the studio.

No, not me ... just snarking again on the previous "every music is sound engineered these days" trope.

[cfirwin3]

14 minutes ago, Old Corps Guy said:

This is a performance based activity that is judged by what is performed on the field on any given night.  When you add pre-recorded professional musicians, you take away from the live performance of the students on the field.

You have to define which performance subcaption is accounting for the performance of the recording.  There's no performance caption for that.  Likewise, you have to account for the positive point value that is given to the captions that exist (brass, percussion, music analysis).  The assertion that there is a finite space for elements and that one element takes the space of another is a fallacy.  Each subcaption is adjudicated simultaneously.

Edit: it is not merely a performance activity.  It is also a design and aesthetics activity.

Edited August 8, 2019 by cfirwin3

[jwillis35]

15 minutes ago, ftwdrummer said:

ok, let's go to a much more clear example and get slightly more on track.

Suppose that there was a corps that featured a soloist for half the show--carrying the entire melody for the bulk of that period, etc. Say it's a guitarist--something like Southwind last year.

Now let's suppose that something happened to said guitar in transit--maybe it got left at the rehearsal site, maybe it got Kurt-Russell-in-Hateful-Eight-ed, maybe it made a left turn in Albuquerque. Regardless, no ability for the guitar to be used.

Let's further assume that the corps had not planned for the possibility that the solos wouldn't be there, and thus for that night half the show was just accompaniment--just chords and counter-melody, and the music didn't really make a lick of sense because you didn't know what was supposed to be the motivating figure for half the show.

I don't see how a judge can reward them for content that isn't actually there.

The judges would only reward them for what they are performing that day, that performance. If the brass performance is good but lacking in content (which it would be) then that will reflect in the score. The same will go with GE Music. With melody missing, the corps' GE Music scores will suffer. Heck, their GE and Music scores might be suffering even with the guitar, because the brass judge is looking at content and performance. You're looking at a brass line that it not going to hit box 5, likely not even Box 4 in scoring. 

The Blue Devils this year use their violin player in the pit extremely well, and he is playing melody in some important areas. But BD is also hitting box 5 in brass, percussion, and GE music. Now if that kid got sick and hat to miss Finals, BD would mostly miss him in the hand-clogging feature where he is playing the melody over the rhythm. They would likely have to give the part to a keyboard player who would have to play it live, and who would need some serious chops. Their GE Music score might suffer, but their brass score would not, nor percussion, since they are already providing more than enough content for the sheets. 

In the case of Southwind (hypothetically) the corps would suffer in music performance and music GE. In the case of BD (hypothetically) the corps might suffer just a pinch in GE music providing they could not substitute the violin solo with a live keyboard solo (which I am sure they would), but they would otherwise see very little harm to their music performance captions. Part of the reason here is that BD is simply better at checking all the boxes when it comes to captions and sub-captions. I mean that as a compliment, too. BD is good at programming, as we all know. 

In the end, how well you do with your programming and design will affect your score more than any electronic use or what some may perceive as deceptive electronics use. 

I do agree with those that have noted (Jeff Ream and others) that it seems poor electronic use has not always shown up in the score. I enjoy when the corps can use electronics, mics, and all that in a tasteful manner. I do not enjoy it when the balance is poor and/or the sound is "goo", "boomy", or distorted.  There should be harsh penalties in score for poor balancing and/or unmusical use of these tools. To date, the sheets are still setup to mostly judge brass, percussion, field visual, guard, GE music, and GE visual. GE Music is an area these scores should show, but we don't often see that. Perhaps ensemble music as well since much of these tools are utilized through the pit. 

In the end I feel taste is the issue. Most fans still want the bulk of the shows to be built around marching, brass, percussion, and guard. I enjoy the creative use of the pit and all the new tools when done well and balanced appropriately. I don't sense any cheating going on. For the most part I feel corps are trying to compete from a design standpoint. Designers are trying anything they can to create the best product, not to cheat the system.  I applaud corps like BD and Bloo for their incredible designs this year. But even those two corps have had their moments of too much bass, goo, etc., just like all the corps seem to have from time to time.  I have mostly been impressed with Carolina Crown and their ability to keep the brass sound very acoustic and pure, minus a few solos. 

[ftwdrummer]

7 minutes ago, jwillis35 said:

The judges would only reward them for what they are performing that day, that performance. If the brass performance is good but lacking in content (which it would be) then that will reflect in the score. The same will go with GE Music. With melody missing, the corps' GE Music scores will suffer. Heck, their GE and Music scores might be suffering even with the guitar, because the brass judge is looking at content and performance. You're looking at a brass line that it not going to hit box 5, likely not even Box 4 in scoring. 

The Blue Devils this year use their violin player in the pit extremely well, and he is playing melody in some important areas. But BD is also hitting box 5 in brass, percussion, and GE music. Now if that kid got sick and hat to miss Finals, BD would mostly miss him in the hand-clogging feature where he is playing the melody over the rhythm. They would likely have to give the part to a keyboard player who would have to play it live, and who would need some serious chops. Their GE Music score might suffer, but their brass score would not, nor percussion, since they are already providing more than enough content for the sheets. 

In the case of Southwind (hypothetically) the corps would suffer in music performance and music GE. In the case of BD (hypothetically) the corps might suffer just a pinch in GE music providing they could not substitute the violin solo with a live keyboard solo (which I am sure they would), but they would otherwise see very little harm to their music performance captions. Part of the reason here is that BD is simply better at checking all the boxes when it comes to captions and sub-captions. I mean that as a compliment, too. BD is good at programming, as we all know. 

In the end, how well you do with your programming and design will affect your score more than any electronic use or what some may perceive as deceptive electronics use. 

I do agree with those that have noted (Jeff Ream and others) that it seems poor electronic use has not always shown up in the score. I enjoy when the corps can use electronics, mics, and all that in a tasteful manner. I do not enjoy it when the balance is poor and/or the sound is "goo", "boomy", or distorted.  There should be harsh penalties in score for poor balancing and/or unmusical use of these tools. To date, the sheets are still setup to mostly judge brass, percussion, field visual, guard, GE music, and GE visual. GE Music is an area these scores should show, but we don't often see that. Perhaps ensemble music as well since much of these tools are utilized through the pit. 

In the end I feel taste is the issue. Most fans still want the bulk of the shows to be built around marching, brass, percussion, and guard. I enjoy the creative use of the pit and all the new tools when done well and balanced appropriately. I don't sense any cheating going on. For the most part I feel corps are trying to compete from a design standpoint. Designers are trying anything they can to create the best product, not to cheat the system.  I applaud corps like BD and Bloo for their incredible designs this year. But even those two corps have had their moments of too much bass, goo, etc., just like all the corps seem to have from time to time.  I have mostly been impressed with Carolina Crown and their ability to keep the brass sound very acoustic and pure, minus a few solos. 

So how do we account for something that was (presumably) performed, but (definitely) inaudible when it was intended to be heard, like the Crown 2017 mic failure?

Not having a backup plan for that situation is a failure by the design staff, and they shouldn't have been scored as if it were there (which it was, given that the scores were roughly identical with and without the singer audible going from Prelims to Semis).

[Old Corps Guy]

19 minutes ago, cfirwin3 said:

You have to define which performance subcaption is accounting for the performance of the recording.  There's no performance caption for that.  Likewise, you have to account for the positive point value that is given to the captions that exist (brass, percussion, music analysis).  The assertion that there is a finite space for elements and that one element takes the space of another is a fallacy.  Each subcaption is adjudicated simultaneously.

Edit: it is not merely a performance activity.  It is also a design and aesthetics activity.

Remove the pre-recorded as it is not performed on the field.  Judge what is performed on any given night, not what was recorded several months/years ago.

..............................….Hiding from the slings and arrows about to fly