Bob984 Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 Ever since the Virus caused an end (and justifiably so) of the 2020 drum corps season, I wondered about this. What are policies involving the return of money paid by members? I know in many corps, the members have been offered full credit toward membership for the 2021(?) season, and many members have indicated their desire to march if a 2021 season happens. DCI also has made an allowance for age-outs. However, what is happening when a member has indicated that they can't or do not wish to march in 2021, and that 2020 "was it" for them. Are they returning a portion of money paid in, or all of it? Some corps have the monies broken down into camp fees and tour fees. Others simply have a "total dollar amount" and members can pay lump sum or in installments, with sometimes the corps offering a discount for paying early/lump sum, and some also offer a discount for returning vets. On the surface, you may say that the member is only entitled to a pro-rated amount, as they were provided instruction, food, and housing at camps attended. The argument on the other side could be that the member paid for those things with an assumption that it was guaranteed to leading to a competitive 2020 season, which did not happen. It would be comparable to someone who paid to attend a 3 week sports camp, and the camp was cancelled and everyone was sent home after 5 days of camp. I think many judges would award a full refund as opposed to a partial one in that case. Yes, the corps would be "eating" the money that they had to spend on instruction, food, and housing up until things ended. However, the member also paid for flights (or long car rides) and gave of their time and efforts, toward a "promised" end result (ie a season) that never happened. If you pay for a new roof to your home, and the contractor does 1/2 of the roof and leaves, they are not entitled to 1/2 payment.....ie payment for only partially completed work. Also, regarding returning members.......will they have to pay for all camps when they already paid for camps attended this past winter/spring? If so, that would mean they end up paying more than for just one season. Will they allow a "2020" member to wait until March to return? I would also bet that policies are not uniform from corps to corps, and I do sympathize with all involved, as this virus is an unprecedented event. The complications are substantial, and if a 2021 season does not happen, things will become far more complicated, and place many corps on shaky ground. Also, what adjustments will be made if things remain "virtual" and not in-person until next Spring, for health/safety concerns (ie we will be lucky if there is a working vaccine in January). Will the overall membership fees remain the same? Will staff be paid for "virtual instruction" the same as if they were flown in to instruct at a live camp? Who will determine things if a member demands a 100% refund, and is only offered a partial refund by the corps? DCI? A judge? There are many unanswered questions, and not many clear-cut answers. If there is not a 2021 season, then all becomes far more complicated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Bob984 said: Ever since the Virus caused an end (and justifiably so) of the 2020 drum corps season, I wondered about this. What are policies involving the return of money paid by members? I know in many corps, the members have been offered full credit toward membership for the 2021(?) season, and many members have indicated their desire to march if a 2021 season happens. DCI also has made an allowance for age-outs. However, what is happening when a member has indicated that they can't or do not wish to march in 2021, and that 2020 "was it" for them. Are they returning a portion of money paid in, or all of it? Some corps have the monies broken down into camp fees and tour fees. Others simply have a "total dollar amount" and members can pay lump sum or in installments, with sometimes the corps offering a discount for paying early/lump sum, and some also offer a discount for returning vets. On the surface, you may say that the member is only entitled to a pro-rated amount, as they were provided instruction, food, and housing at camps attended. The argument on the other side could be that the member paid for those things with an assumption that it was guaranteed to leading to a competitive 2020 season, which did not happen. It would be comparable to someone who paid to attend a 3 week sports camp, and the camp was cancelled and everyone was sent home after 5 days of camp. I think many judges would award a full refund as opposed to a partial one in that case. Yes, the corps would be "eating" the money that they had to spend on instruction, food, and housing up until things ended. However, the member also paid for flights (or long car rides) and gave of their time and efforts, toward a "promised" end result (ie a season) that never happened. If you pay for a new roof to your home, and the contractor does 1/2 of the roof and leaves, they are not entitled to 1/2 payment.....ie payment for only partially completed work. Also, regarding returning members.......will they have to pay for all camps when they already paid for camps attended this past winter/spring? If so, that would mean they end up paying more than for just one season. Will they allow a "2020" member to wait until March to return? I would also bet that policies are not uniform from corps to corps, and I do sympathize with all involved, as this virus is an unprecedented event. The complications are substantial, and if a 2021 season does not happen, things will become far more complicated, and place many corps on shaky ground. Also, what adjustments will be made if things remain "virtual" and not in-person until next Spring, for health/safety concerns (ie we will be lucky if there is a working vaccine in January). Will the overall membership fees remain the same? Will staff be paid for "virtual instruction" the same as if they were flown in to instruct at a live camp? Who will determine things if a member demands a 100% refund, and is only offered a partial refund by the corps? DCI? A judge? There are many unanswered questions, and not many clear-cut answers. If there is not a 2021 season, then all becomes far more complicated. I think this was discussed in other threads a while ago. Corps will have their own policies and AS far as I know addressed it with their members or potential members. The 2020 season would have been over soon so this had to be addressed by corps long before now, as far as monies and many of your questions Edited July 24, 2020 by GUARDLING Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 every corps had their own policies that were communicated to the membership 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeN Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 To echo others, each corps does their own thing, but it looks like $1,200 - $1,600 non-refundable towards this year's expenses already paid is what keeps getting described. Again, your corps may vary. Mike 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob984 Posted July 24, 2020 Author Share Posted July 24, 2020 3 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said: every corps had their own policies that were communicated to the membership No argument with what you said. However, I doubt that any corps had a policy in place for members paying and then not having a season, prior to the virus, as it was an unprecedented event, except perhaps for WW2 in the pre-DCI days. Yes, every corps "created" a policy after the virus, and then the season being cancelled. I would also "bet the farm" that there have been a small percentage of members asking for all monies paid to be returned, and the corps saying "that's not the policy"......though it's doubtful that any of those members pursue any further (ie legal) action, or appeal to DCI.........my guess is that 99% took what ever money the corps paid back, and that was that...........I think the corps would lose, though, if a kid had paid all of their money for 2020 and didn't receive anything back after asking, but I haven't heard of that happening anywhere............I also know that some corps have 90% of membership saying that they will return in 2021.....but then it will get totally crazy if 2021 doesn't happen, which is a very real (but I hope not) possibility............... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 10 hours ago, Bob984 said: No argument with what you said. However, I doubt that any corps had a policy in place for members paying and then not having a season, prior to the virus, as it was an unprecedented event, except perhaps for WW2 in the pre-DCI days. Yes, every corps "created" a policy after the virus, and then the season being cancelled. I would also "bet the farm" that there have been a small percentage of members asking for all monies paid to be returned, and the corps saying "that's not the policy"......though it's doubtful that any of those members pursue any further (ie legal) action, or appeal to DCI.........my guess is that 99% took what ever money the corps paid back, and that was that...........I think the corps would lose, though, if a kid had paid all of their money for 2020 and didn't receive anything back after asking, but I haven't heard of that happening anywhere............I also know that some corps have 90% of membership saying that they will return in 2021.....but then it will get totally crazy if 2021 doesn't happen, which is a very real (but I hope not) possibility............... well, no one ever expected the season would get yanked from then in March. sometimes you need a huge surprise to help create policy going forward Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob984 Posted July 25, 2020 Author Share Posted July 25, 2020 14 hours ago, Jeff Ream said: well, no one ever expected the season would get yanked from then in March. sometimes you need a huge surprise to help create policy going forward I agree that the virus caused unprecedented action (other than maybe pre-DCI WW2).............I just would be curious if anyone asked for all of their money back, and if anyone got it. Obviously many are looking for and getting a "credit" toward 2021. However, if 2021 doesn't happen (and let's face it, there is a significant chance that could be the case), how far can the "can be kicked down the road". I think many members, especially those over 20 years of age, may be looking to "cash out" at that point, and reality is that many corps will not have it in their accounts to do so............that could get ugly............... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DFA1970 Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 1 hour ago, Bob984 said: I agree that the virus caused unprecedented action (other than maybe pre-DCI WW2).............I just would be curious if anyone asked for all of their money back, and if anyone got it. Obviously many are looking for and getting a "credit" toward 2021. However, if 2021 doesn't happen (and let's face it, there is a significant chance that could be the case), how far can the "can be kicked down the road". I think many members, especially those over 20 years of age, may be looking to "cash out" at that point, and reality is that many corps will not have it in their accounts to do so............that could get ugly............... Lets see what happens in 2021. I'm sure most corps are not using those fees they collected and are in a fund for next year. Like others have said it's up the that certain organizations on how to handle this if no season in 2021. I'm sure whoever asked for a refund in 2020 most likely got it. I haven't heard of any situation where it wasn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted July 26, 2020 Share Posted July 26, 2020 4 hours ago, Bob984 said: I agree that the virus caused unprecedented action (other than maybe pre-DCI WW2).............I just would be curious if anyone asked for all of their money back, and if anyone got it. Obviously many are looking for and getting a "credit" toward 2021. However, if 2021 doesn't happen (and let's face it, there is a significant chance that could be the case), how far can the "can be kicked down the road". I think many members, especially those over 20 years of age, may be looking to "cash out" at that point, and reality is that many corps will not have it in their accounts to do so............that could get ugly............... I think by now every corps would have put a policy in place unique to the virus and 2020 cancellation, and also communicated it to the members long ago. It is up to each organization to create their policies, so you would have to check with the corps themselves. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted July 26, 2020 Share Posted July 26, 2020 9 hours ago, Bob984 said: I agree that the virus caused unprecedented action (other than maybe pre-DCI WW2).............I just would be curious if anyone asked for all of their money back, and if anyone got it. Obviously many are looking for and getting a "credit" toward 2021. However, if 2021 doesn't happen (and let's face it, there is a significant chance that could be the case), how far can the "can be kicked down the road". I think many members, especially those over 20 years of age, may be looking to "cash out" at that point, and reality is that many corps will not have it in their accounts to do so............that could get ugly............... yes some asked and received for all minus covering what had already been paid to cover camps and audtitions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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