Paraphrased Thoughts on "Judging" from a newly minted 5-year Age Out

[mjoakes]

I've noticed an important pattern over the years: When the scores align well with what I'm thinking, the judging is just fine. When they don't align, there's invariably some kind of judging problem.

[MikeD]

16 hours ago, greg_orangecounty said:

There will always be inconsistency in judging when humans are involved.  One plate umpires strike is another's ball.  One line judges completion is a back judge's incomplete pass.  My point is the tic system worked in that it placed corps in their correct order of finish and allowed for innovation at the same time.  

Not saying to turn the clock back to 1970-something but the tic system worked and .doesn't deserve the criticism I read here from fellow dinos. 

 

The tick system worked when drum corps was a much simpler activity. Drumline elevator drills up and down the 50, for example. Squad moves and more linear drills. More vertical arrangements. No front ensembles. Etc....

The impetus to change it to eventually #### we have today came as drum corps expanded beyond the old model of shows and design. Mallets and timpani, even marching versions, were not able to be completely judged using the tick system, as one example. 

 

 

[Boss Anova]

1 hour ago, MikeD said:

The tick system worked when drum corps was a much simpler activity. Drumline elevator drills up and down the 50, for example. Squad moves and more linear drills. More vertical arrangements. No front ensembles. Etc....

The impetus to change it to eventually #### we have today came as drum corps expanded beyond the old model of shows and design. Mallets and timpani, even marching versions, were not able to be completely judged using the tick system, as one example. 

 

 

I have no idea how judges judge the the playing abilities of rock guitarists either . Or singers . No matter whether it’s a tick system or the newer build up points system .Most DCI judges currently really have little to no professional experience nor educational training in the intricacies of Voice or Guitar .  They don’t play a guitar nor sing a song any better than you or me. ( ok, maybe me . I can sing in the shower , but not very well ) 😀

[BigW]

I took five semesters of Voice Classes/Private lessons, and had to sing in three different choirs for five total semesters to meet requirements for my B.S. Mus.Ed. I also had to take a course in Choral Conducting. I had to pass/fail a vocal competency test that might scare some people. (One part... here's the first note, Sight read this tune acapella and we'll find out how much you drifted off key) I have experience conducting Elementary, Middle School, and High School Choruses. I'd venture most judges have come through a similar curriculum or have more than that at the DCI level.

 

As for guitar, I had to pass/fail a minimum Guitar competency test. I'm no shredder but I have an appreciation and respect for the instrument.

 

I had to take at least four semesters of Piano classes/Piano lessons and pass/fail a pretty involved competency test for that as well.

 

And this... from a Euphonium Major. My corps experience was quite valuable, by the way. Trying to keep tonal centers on a G Bugle and singing a lot of passages together in rehearsals were a huge help.

 

The crux of this is, good musicianship is good musicianship. Musicality is still musicality whether or not it's on the Judge's Major instrument of specialty. When those things take place at a top end level, it slaps you in the face as to how good it is. The real issue is at the DCI level where splitting of sub-atomic particles is the norm. 

Edited August 18, 2021 by BigW

[MikeD]

1 hour ago, Boss Anova said:

I have no idea how judges judge the the playing abilities of rock guitarists either . Or singers . No matter whether it’s a tick system or the newer build up points system .Most DCI judges currently really have little to no professional experience nor educational training in the intricacies of Voice or Guitar .  They don’t play a guitar nor sing a song any better than you or me. ( ok, maybe me . I can sing in the shower , but not very well ) 😀

Music ed majors take courses in many areas of music performance. Even in my dinosaur college era (71-75) I (as a percussion major) took courses in strings, woodwinds, brass, singing. I took 6 semesters of piano. Sang in choir for three years in addition to band and orchestra.

Judges who judge marching band competitions have been doing just fine for many decades evaluating a wider array of instruments than drum corps, actually, when WW are added in.

 

[Jeff Ream]

8 hours ago, Boss Anova said:

Jersey Surf placed 20th with the Judges in 2012 but likely would have easily placed in the Top 6 in DCI with their “ Bridgemania” tribute show to the 1970’s Bridgemen Corps . Paciific Crest would have topped  Cavaliers , Boston ,Bluecoats ,  Blue Stars etc this season as they finished ahead of these Corps in this past week’s fan poll conducted by Flo Marching .  Music City in 2018 would have topped Blue Devils, SCV , Crown , Bluecoats , Boston,  Cadets , Phantom Regiment , Cavaliers , Blue Knights , Madison Scouts with their tribute show to train conductor Casey Jones as national fan poll conducted by Flo Marching had them winning with the fans . I suppose this could be arranged . I’m just not so sure that this will give rise to excellence in performance being rewarded , but it’s certainly gathering support here and on other social media that “ the fans “ judge these corps in competition ..

 

first you assume everyone was in the stadium to watch surf. thats not a knock on Surf, thats a knock on fans who wait til "names" go on

[Jeff Ream]

7 hours ago, troopers1 said:

Yes.  But the way the sheets exist, or the mathematical/analytical approach we now take to meeting their requirements, result in a technically impressive, generally unapproachable and very clinical experience.  More importantly it causes corps make questionable financial decisions, since meeting the formula is in a sliding scale for overall value per dollar.

it's always been that way. taking trips across country to do a nationals competition, but not guaranteed to make any money along the way since pay at local shows often depended on placement.....and sheets, varied local from local, and then from Al to VFW....questionable decisions are as old in this activity as alumni griping about changes...they have both been happening since day 2

[Jeff Ream]

7 hours ago, Mello Dude said:

Why?  You know you can have all that and this right?  I'm not advocating removing judges, I simply am "throwing this out there"  why not take say 5 points and have the audience rate the GE?  This would cause the end of DCI?  Talent?  Why do people throw this term around?  I have seen the best players in the country be WORTHLESS on a football field because they simply could not march and play to save their lives or god forbid march in time.

local bias much? You think BD will get the majority of votes in Allentown?  Hell Crossmen wont even get the majority of votes in San Antonio. 

[Jeff Ream]

7 hours ago, WilsonStaff said:

Did you march during the tic system? 

no, but i grew up around it, and have talked to folks in all areas of the game during those days. judge bias was far more prevalent then, and sheets didnt match from circuit to circuit if they even had a sheet beyond something to mark tics on.

[Jeff Ream]

4 hours ago, mjoakes said:

I've noticed an important pattern over the years: When the scores align well with what I'm thinking, the judging is just fine. When they don't align, there's invariably some kind of judging problem.

pretty much