Madison Scouts 2023

[TenHut]

3 hours ago, Gantang said:

Toxic is a ridiculous word. How about disappointed, embarrassed, or angry? And why do the current members have time to spend on Reddit? Hmmm...

Maybe the current members should start thinking that a good chunk of the older alum base is pointing out things to which no one else is willing to speak the truth. Maybe they should start asking if the current leadership and staff are giving them the product to be competitive (in World). Maybe they should ask "why" a good chunk of the alum base is disappointed, embarrassed, or maybe even angry that there seems to be little desire or hunger to be more competitive (in World).

Generally, the squeaky part gets greased. The current leadership has heard the squeaks for a long time but instead of applying grease, they turn up their internal noise to drown out the things they don't wish to hear.

Is it toxic to want any organization or person to do better? Or is it obtuse to ignore the people expressing a desire for change?

100% spot on. 

[Vuitton]

14 hours ago, Cappybara said:

Pathetic

Sure is. Pathetic that it will probably take them losing to open class corps and dropping below 20th place before something finally changes there.

[Vuitton]

9 hours ago, BlueStainGlass said:

I mean if I have to point this one out - there are phones now a days not newspapers.  You ride in things called buses and have these things called meals where you can relax outside of rehearsal.  So now these phones have the internet where they can read what people are constantly saying here, reddit, and facebook.  I normally agree with @Vuitton but I would NEVER sit there and cheer for my group to lose to someone to prove a point.  

It’s not about proving a point. It’s about change. What is it going to take to end an administration who year-after-year-after-year puts out failed programs from a design and competitive standpoint? Obviously, getting the lowest placement in the DCI era in 2019 didn’t incite change. What’s it going to take?

Yes, I am very angry. I hate this administration. It’s actually less about their lack of success and more about the way they work.

Think of me what you want. It’s fair assessment, I am out of line with what I said, but I mean what I said.  

Edited August 4, 2023 by Vuitton

[Tim K]

I saw Madison the other night in Glassboro. I did not find the show as bad as some on this thread claim, but it did lack enthusiasm. A great deal of performing a show is selling it. This is where alums can play a huge role. Fast forward to Lawrence, MA. I was also at the BAC show. Alumni support played a huge role in getting Boston Crusaders where it is today. Yes BAC has deep pocketed friends and folks who know how to turn a dime into a dollar, but from about 2009 to 2015 there was a huge effort to reconnect alumni, make former rivals fans, and local get drum corps enthusiasts to get behind BAC. For Madison folks who marched 40 years ago, did you ever think there would be a day when 27th, Bridgemen, and North Star slums would be enthusiastically supporting Boston Crusaders? Alums also supported the corps even if they were not pleased with show themes. Do you really think that old timers really thought “Animal Farm” was the way to go in 2014? That didn’t stop them from supporting marching members on the field. Another example is Cadets. There is no way Madison has had the drama and issues Cadets had with its infamous former director and chaos in leadership afterwards, but alums at least supported the kids on the field.

From what I understand from folks I know who have been associated with Madison, major work needs to be done to rebuild bridges, but don’t let that keep you from supporting the kids on the field.

Edited August 4, 2023 by Tim K

[Vuitton]

15 hours ago, Cappybara said:

The things people do for attention. Imagine being a current member and seeing this sentiment expressed by an alum

It isn’t uncommon to see current Madison members on Reddit express that they feel like a good chunk of the older alum base is toxic. Not hard to see why. 

It’s not attention-seeking, it’s anger.  It’s wondering how far this administration has to fall before they are replaced. If that’s open class corps beating Madison, than I want open class corps to beat Madison. Where they have taken this corps is just pathetic. The essence of  Madison is gone (and I’m not talking gender inclusivity here because I support that), the designs are subpar, the entertainment value isn’t there either, and competitively it’s a disaster.

So, yes, if it takes me wanting other corps to make MY corps better in the future, than by all means that’s what I want.

I’d be curious to know your drum corps experience.

[Vuitton]

4 hours ago, Tim K said:

I saw Madison the other night in Glassboro. I did not find the show as bad as some on this thread claim, but it did lack enthusiasm. A great deal of performing a show is selling it. This is where alums can play a huge role. Fast forward to Lawrence, MA. I was also at the BAC show. Alumni support played a huge role in getting Boston Crusaders where it is today. Yes BAC has deep pocketed friends and folks who know how to turn a dime into a dollar, but from about 2009 to 2015 there was a huge effort to reconnect alumni, make former rivals fans, and local get drum corps enthusiasts to get behind BAC. For Madison folks who marched 40 years ago, did you ever think there would be a day when 27th, Bridgemen, and North Star slums would be enthusiastically supporting Boston Crusaders? Alums also supported the corps even if they were not pleased with show themes. Do you really think that old timers really thought “Animal Farm” was the way to go in 2014? That didn’t stop them from supporting marching members on the field. Another example is Cadets. There is no way Madison has had the drama and issues Cadets had with its infamous former director and chaos in leadership afterwards, but alums at least supported the kids on the field.

From what I understand from folks I know who have been associated with Madison, major work needs to be done to rebuild bridges, but don’t let that keep you from supporting the kids on the field.

None of this is about of the kids on the field. 

I’ve said several times on this thread that this administration does’t want its alumni. I’ve also talked about the support the Cadets, Regiment and BAC have gotten from their alumni that helped turn those ships around. Chris has shunned the alumni and consolidated power. He’s a dictator. An untoppable dictator. 

You can’t expect me to support a man who took our Facebook alumni page (the one place we could all connect) away from us under the threat of lawsuit because people were critical of him.

If I was so unaccepting of criticism and feedback I wouldn’t have gotten any where in my career.

[2muchcoffeeman]

16 hours ago, MikeD said:

 

Garfield Cadets

1971 - “America, the Brave”…complete with printed libretto passed out in the stands.

1972 - “No More War”…with placemat sized 3-photo handout.

 

Yeah, yeah, and Spartacus 1981. But those were the exceptions that proved the rule. Santa Clara won in 1981 with a show named . . .  nothing at all. BD won the next year with a show named . . . . 

And, yes, we're old! Anyone marching DCI today has known nothing but productions that come with labels on them. But even today, as I mentioned in a show thread somewhere, look at "The Cut Outs" and try to find a "story." Cut-Outs is a device, not a theme. It's a label, not a narrative. BD 2023 could have called this show "Wacky Shapes" or "Primary Colors" or "Try to Beat This" and, in my theory, they would be getting exactly the same scores they actually are getting today because the design, content and performance of the show on the field would still be the same design, content and performance of the show on the field. The BD production of 2023 has internal logic and coherence, and that's all that's needed. If, somehow, you never heard or learned of the name of BD's show by the time you plopped into your seat, you would get to the last note of the show and say to yourself "Yep, that's a winner."

If we're going to be fair, the same should be true for Madison. The big ol' ball on the field should make sense unto itself and to whatever is going on, on the field, for the 10+ minutes it is out there. Whether it does, or doesn't, evoke a sense of a "Sound Garden", whatever that even is, should be immaterial. Judges (and fans) shouldn't hold it against the Scouts if the show doesn't conjure up a literal garden of sound just because that's the name on the program.

Edited August 4, 2023 by 2muchcoffeeman

[Gantang]

8 hours ago, Tim K said:

This is where alums can play a huge role. 

From what I understand from folks I know who have been associated with Madison, major work needs to be done to rebuild bridges, but don’t let that keep you from supporting the kids on the field.

For some Madison Scouts alumni that I know, the issue is that the leadership changed the entire identity of the Madison Scouts, and created The Corps with Madison in the Name. It will be up to the boy and girl alumni to support the iteration that they are a part of.

The following is a synopsis of what I have been told by people with a long history with the Madison Scouts, either as marching members, volunteers, or fans. The people who made the decision to create a co-ed corps did so without input from the old alumni. Forward Performing Arts has a brand that could have been revived, that brand is Capitol Sound.

Capitol Sound was the MDBCA's co-ed corps and was distinct from the Madison Scouts. Rather than bastardize the Madison Scouts, the leadership should have shelved the Scouts and continued as Capitol Sound, which would have meant competing (yes, competing) in Open Class for a few years. If they proved to be very competitive, they could then petition DCI for World Class status. 

A phone conversation I had last night with a color guard alumnus, who also instructed the Scouts, was capped by this paraphrase:

Madison is looking at finishing 17th or 18th out of the World Class Corps. If SCV was on the field that would push Madison as low as 19th. If SCVC was on the field, Madison could have finished 20th or worse. I feel like I was sold out by the guys in charge. It wouldn't be so bad if the move had made a positive difference, but this is just embarrassing. 

Everything I wrote is one-sided because I haven't been privy to any competing thoughts. I'm sure there are many who are OK with the current situation, but I don't know any. Blame my age. I think what many people on this forum are seeking is for the BOD to objectively assess whether they have the right people at the top of the Madison Scouts. I wrote before that Stweart, Wall, and Salas were all fired because of measurable performance metrics both in on-field competitiveness and fiscal responsibility. What made those Boards move while this Board (which contains some long-term Directors) allows the corps to slip further down the rankings? 

The 27th, Bridgemen, and North Star alumni may have looked at the BAC leadership's moves and saw a dynamic group with a solid plan to bring Boston back to high-level prominence, whereas the Madison alumni are hesitant to throw their money to a group that, to them, appears to be dying a slow death. The key word here is "leadership". Boston's vs Madison's. 

[scout9193]

47 minutes ago, Gantang said:

For some Madison Scouts alumni that I know, the issue is that the leadership changed the entire identity of the Madison Scouts, and created The Corps with Madison in the Name. It will be up to the boy and girl alumni to support the iteration that they are a part of.

The following is a synopsis of what I have been told by people with a long history with the Madison Scouts, either as marching members, volunteers, or fans. The people who made the decision to create a co-ed corps did so without input from the old alumni. Forward Performing Arts has a brand that could have been revived, that brand is Capitol Sound.

Capitol Sound was the MDBCA's co-ed corps and was distinct from the Madison Scouts. Rather than bastardize the Madison Scouts, the leadership should have shelved the Scouts and continued as Capitol Sound, which would have meant competing (yes, competing) in Open Class for a few years. If they proved to be very competitive, they could then petition DCI for World Class status. 

A phone conversation I had last night with a color guard alumnus, who also instructed the Scouts, was capped by this paraphrase:

Madison is looking at finishing 17th or 18th out of the World Class Corps. If SCV was on the field that would push Madison as low as 19th. If SCVC was on the field, Madison could have finished 20th or worse. I feel like I was sold out by the guys in charge. It wouldn't be so bad if the move had made a positive difference, but this is just embarrassing. 

Everything I wrote is one-sided because I haven't been privy to any competing thoughts. I'm sure there are many who are OK with the current situation, but I don't know any. Blame my age. I think what many people on this forum are seeking is for the BOD to objectively assess whether they have the right people at the top of the Madison Scouts. I wrote before that Stweart, Wall, and Salas were all fired because of measurable performance metrics both in on-field competitiveness and fiscal responsibility. What made those Boards move while this Board (which contains some long-term Directors) allows the corps to slip further down the rankings? 

The 27th, Bridgemen, and North Star alumni may have looked at the BAC leadership's moves and saw a dynamic group with a solid plan to bring Boston back to high-level prominence, whereas the Madison alumni are hesitant to throw their money to a group that, to them, appears to be dying a slow death. The key word here is "leadership". Boston's vs Madison's. 

@Gantang Had they shelved the Scouts I would have certainly supported Capital Sound financially & otherwise to the extent I could have.  I've not been in a place financially to be able to offer but only a pittance until recently.  Now that I can offer a bit more, the last thing I'm inclined to do is take my hard earned money and throw it at this organization. 

Even if the director and BoD resign it feels to me like the damage has done at this point.  I too feel like what I was taught & what it meant to be a member and alumnus has been sold out (dare I say sabotaged) by those in charge.  I don't wish ill on any current marching member- male or female- but perhaps this organization has run its race.  

 

[CAtenhut]

5 hours ago, Vuitton said:

It’s not attention-seeking, it’s anger.  It’s wondering how far this administration has to fall before they are replaced. If that’s open class corps beating Madison, than I want open class corps to beat Madison. Where they have taken this corps is just pathetic. The essence of  Madison is gone (and I’m not talking gender inclusivity here because I support that), the designs are subpar, the entertainment value isn’t there either, and competitively it’s a disaster.

So, yes, if it takes me wanting other corps to make MY corps better in the future, than by all means that’s what I want.

I’d be curious to know your drum corps experience.

You might not be seeking attention, but to think current members won't see this thread is naive. You understand this organization's current state way more than I do, but as a fan of the Scouts from the 80s and 90s, I've been disappointed with their direction as well. But I would never publicly use words like "pathetic" when describing a corps that I'm sure many of their current members and staff, if not all, still feel privileged to be a part of and are still giving their all this season. Posts like yours would make them feel like garbage.

Not sure when you marched but no way your corps was ever exposed to what these kids are nowadays with social media and forums like DCP. I am not saying how you feel is wrong, but I'm asking you to turn it down a notch out of respect for the current members and staff who are still giving it their all this season.

Edited August 4, 2023 by CAtenhut