The whistleblowers and survivors of abuse in this industry are tired...

[scheherazadesghost]

My point in including the quote, though, was to highlight that some alumni who were closer to the abuse may no longer be able to enjoy the art that was begat of it.

We aren't saying others can't or shouldn't.  Literally, OP says a much.

We're saying we, the "instruments" of the art making process may not be able to do so despite trying or wanting to.

It was a validating statement to read, as I feel the same way about the years I marched.

Edited April 18 by scheherazadesghost

[BigW]

1 hour ago, Terri Schehr said:

The separation of the deeply flawed artist from their art is a tough call. I think Woody Allen and Polanski are despicable but I have to admit that I still watch their movies. And i didn’t flinch when Crown played Liebestod last year.  https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20130509-is-wagners-nazi-stigma-fair

Oh, When I was an interim HS Concert band director, I scrapped "Elsa's Procession to the Cathedral", in part because it didn't fit the personality of the band, and also because it was Wagner.

[Terri Schehr]

1 minute ago, BigW said:

Oh, When I was an interim HS Concert band director, I scrapped "Elsa's Procession to the Cathedral", in part because it didn't fit the personality of the band, and also because it was Wagner.

Like I said, tough call. 

[FormerXyloWhiz]

21 hours ago, scheherazadesghost said:

I'm also seeing a lot of people blame George Hopkins. I understand where they're coming from and obviously you all know I'm not going to be George Hopkins defender, but this isn't solely his fault either. In my opinion, looking at George as a the sole downfall of the Cadets is likely how the board landed in this situation. Removing George from the organization didn't solve the issues inherent to the organization because George was part of the problem, not the whole problem itself.

I'll preface this by saying I agree with the spirit of what this person posted in general.  But, as somebody who was there, they do not know what they speak of with the Cadets regarding Hop.  Of course the abuse was there before him, because lets face facts: the abuse was, and is, everywhere in the activity.  No corps is immune from it.   

The cycle didn't start with Hop, but he codified it there. He was dug in like a tick.  His grip, an ironclad stranglehold.  He was in charge for 34 years, more than one third of the corps' existence.  He enabled the abuse there for those years and directly took part in it.  Once he took over anybody who marched there can tell you:  Hop's culture was the corps culture.  Outside the abuse, that culture generally was "work yourself to absolute death if you have to in order to succeed."  The work was literally all that mattered.  Not people, not physical health, not mental health, not nutrition, not safety - work, even at the expense of all of these things.  That was the lesson he wanted us all to get.  With that culture, they won 6 out of 11 years with incredible performances.  We all bought into that culture.  We were flat out treated like dog sh** - and we lived for that experience.  Looking back on it I see the absolute insanity.  I would never let anybody treat me like that here in my adult life now.  But I let them do it back then.  Because they were the champions when I showed up for my first audition and I was not.  I was a kid.  I knew nothing.  They're the adults.  They must know.  This is how you succeed.  I must be wrong.  I'll just take it. 

Removing Hop drastically altered the organization and the culture.  Immediately.  The members from 2018 - 2023 were genuinely supported and taken care of to a degree we never were.  It was a valiant effort.  It was imperfect.  But it was far better.  Abuse is everywhere in the activity.  Hop made the corps an even easier place for abusers and perpetrators to thrive.  I hold him directly accountable for that. 

[scheherazadesghost]

44 minutes ago, FormerXyloWhiz said:

I'll preface this by saying I agree with the spirit of what this person posted in general.  But, as somebody who was there, they do not know what they speak of with the Cadets regarding Hop.  Of course the abuse was there before him, because lets face facts: the abuse was, and is, everywhere in the activity.  No corps is immune from it.   

The cycle didn't start with Hop, but he codified it there. He was dug in like a tick.  His grip, an ironclad stranglehold.  He was in charge for 34 years, more than one third of the corps' existence.  He enabled the abuse there for those years and directly took part in it.  Once he took over anybody who marched there can tell you:  Hop's culture was the corps culture.  Outside the abuse, that culture generally was "work yourself to absolute death if you have to in order to succeed."  The work was literally all that mattered.  Not people, not physical health, not mental health, not nutrition, not safety - work, even at the expense of all of these things.  That was the lesson he wanted us all to get.  With that culture, they won 6 out of 11 years with incredible performances.  We all bought into that culture.  We were flat out treated like dog sh** - and we lived for that experience.  Looking back on it I see the absolute insanity.  I would never let anybody treat me like that here in my adult life now.  But I let them do it back then.  Because they were the champions when I showed up for my first audition and I was not.  I was a kid.  I knew nothing.  They're the adults.  They must know.  This is how you succeed.  I must be wrong.  I'll just take it. 

Removing Hop drastically altered the organization and the culture.  Immediately.  The members from 2018 - 2023 were genuinely supported and taken care of to a degree we never were.  It was a valiant effort.  It was imperfect.  But it was far better.  Abuse is everywhere in the activity.  Hop made the corps an even easier place for abusers and perpetrators to thrive.  I hold him directly accountable for that. 

Thank you for bringing your perspective. You've been quite level headed through it this and I appreciate that.

I'm relieved to read that things improved for the members with GH's removal. I marched with someone who originally got into Cadets but noped out of it bc of the culture you mention... only to end up at what they called worse at Vanguard. Under a caption head who is a Cadets alum no less.

Where I think the two groups differ is that Cadets had a figure head that codified the abusive culture, whereas Vanguard needed no such figure head. I think it was there under GR's nose when he was still with us, and has only metastasized during and since The Dark Years. No figure head to root out or place blame on, for better or worse.

Respectfully, thus, as an outsider to Cadets, others are likely tempted to say it wasn't GH alone and to say so risks excusing apologists, enablers, and flying monkeys that are still very present all across the activity. I'm definitely not directing that at you, but the overall sentiment that places the overwhelming majority, if not all blame on him alone.

Edited April 18 by scheherazadesghost

[BigW]

40 minutes ago, FormerXyloWhiz said:

I'll preface this by saying I agree with the spirit of what this person posted in general.  But, as somebody who was there, they do not know what they speak of with the Cadets regarding Hop.  Of course the abuse was there before him, because lets face facts: the abuse was, and is, everywhere in the activity.  No corps is immune from it.   

The cycle didn't start with Hop, but he codified it there. He was dug in like a tick.  His grip, an ironclad stranglehold.  He was in charge for 34 years, more than one third of the corps' existence.  He enabled the abuse there for those years and directly took part in it.  Once he took over anybody who marched there can tell you:  Hop's culture was the corps culture.  Outside the abuse, that culture generally was "work yourself to absolute death if you have to in order to succeed."  The work was literally all that mattered.  Not people, not physical health, not mental health, not nutrition, not safety - work, even at the expense of all of these things.  That was the lesson he wanted us all to get.  With that culture, they won 6 out of 11 years with incredible performances.  We all bought into that culture.  We were flat out treated like dog sh** - and we lived for that experience.  Looking back on it I see the absolute insanity.  I would never let anybody treat me like that here in my adult life now.  But I let them do it back then.  Because they were the champions when I showed up for my first audition and I was not.  I was a kid.  I knew nothing.  They're the adults.  They must know.  This is how you succeed.  I must be wrong.  I'll just take it. 

Removing Hop drastically altered the organization and the culture.  Immediately.  The members from 2018 - 2023 were genuinely supported and taken care of to a degree we never were.  It was a valiant effort.  It was imperfect.  But it was far better.  Abuse is everywhere in the activity.  Hop made the corps an even easier place for abusers and perpetrators to thrive.  I hold him directly accountable for that. 

The culture was there before Hop and outside Cadets. I'll testify to it. And it's lurking at the HS level and rears its ugly head more often than I care to recount.

 

There were many times at work when I was actively seeking a HS Band Director job when friends came to me with a newspaper clipping or a note telling me of an arrest and job opening. Sad.

Edited April 18 by BigW

[IllianaLancerContra]

2 hours ago, Terri Schehr said:

The separation of the deeply flawed artist from their art is a tough call. I think Woody Allen and Polanski are despicable but I have to admit that I still watch their movies. And i didn’t flinch when Crown played Liebestod last year.  https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20130509-is-wagners-nazi-stigma-fair

Not to mention Henri Matisse, inspiration of the 2023 Blue Devils program, was to a degree a Nazi collaborator during WW2. 

[BigW]

19 minutes ago, IllianaLancerContra said:

Not to mention Henri Matisse, inspiration of the 2023 Blue Devils program, was to a degree a Nazi collaborator during WW2. 

Now you mention, that, reading up on it, it was extremely weird. Then again, IIRC for some reason (Health and age?) he decided not to run for it and take his chances?

[scheherazadesghost]

Y'all. Respectfully...

Choosing show material based on 20th century artists who sold their works to/sympathized with/entertained Nazis is not anywhere near the same as enabling and facilitating abuse in drum corps. (Although, to be fair, there are countless other artists and creatives out there that aren't tied to violence, abuse, and atrocity. Would it be a good idea to use Michael Jackson's music at this point, for example? I wouldn't!) It's possibly in the same ballpark as Polanski and Allen in film... but there's no need to ambiguate the topic here.

Countless untold members were physically, verbally and sexually abused for years; it was covered up and silenced; and blaming a single person vastly oversimplifies the breadth of this issue. Activity leadership and the community at large have never had a transparent, honest and informed dialogue about that, which risks the safety of current marchers and staff.

Rand, an expert, who has listened to countless survivor reports by now suggests centering survivor perspectives. Safe Sport International suggests centering survivor perspectives. Both say that the remedy, which survivors are due, includes minimally linking them to mental health support services, or gasp actually enabling said services. I suggested the idea to VMAPA and it was immediately dismissed without discussion.

DCI and drum corps seem to refuse to do anything resembling that. Still. To the detriment of current marchers and staff.

It's unconscionable at this point to not even host discussions with survivors, given how long this legacy has lasted.

[Jurassic Lancer]

10 hours ago, Terri Schehr said:

Two.  Jim has two, also. 

Every corps I ever marched with folded decades ago.