Off Season Rambling

[cfirwin3]

On 10/24/2022 at 1:35 PM, jjeffeory said:

Haha,

The instruments never "needed" to be in G. Those early organizations could have used regular concert band instruments from the beginning, but the story we're told is that there was a surplus of uniform and equipment after the wars of last century, so they've been in G until this century. Sure, they weren't bugles after valve and rotors were added, but a rose by any other name is still a rose... I personally don't feel that it is an important distinction. Now the difference in the overtone series and playing are noteworthy. That's certain something that was pointed out to many of us listening to greats like Donnie Van Doren explain how unique the sound was of the Gs, and pointing out the challenges of playing on those horns compared to concert instruments.

The instrument manufacturers added valves over a period of decades, so it didn't all happen at once; adding the third valve started in '90 with the high brass, and happened over the period of several years with the rest of the voices.  Another thing within the G horns is that was a large variety of bell front voices that aren't in play today. Sops, flugel bugles, mellophones, alto, frenchies, tromboniums, baritone, euphs, meehanphones,  contras, and whatever else crazy that BD tried and dominated DCI with in the 70s and 80s.  Now, we've homogenized into most lines having Trumpets, mellophones, baritones, euphoniums, and tubas.  Of course sometimes there are small french horn ensembles, the occasional flugel horn here and there, and the obligatory yearly trombone glissandos; but the lines today are pretty homogenized. Most of the ensemble musical timbre experimentation is now done in the pit and the hornline is just there, imho. Kudos to Cadets for using an Alto horn as a solo this past season though.

Ehh.  That minor third drop brought the horn capabilities down far enough for brass players to play in the range appropriate for the music.  Of course, they didn't need to use G... and perhaps there was a wide availability of these horns at the beginning... but the G horns in limited valve configurations were self-justified until enough valves were present to make the key of G pointless for the instruments.  Playing a valve and rotor or 2 valves on the literature that they wanted required the key of G in order to make it work, etc.  If the horns were in D (if such a 2 valves musical animal existed), then the players (particularly the soprano voices) would be pushed out of a comfortable, accessible chromatic range.  G players and Bb players essentially top out in the same frequencies, with shared mouthpiece equipment.  G lines maxed out and hovered in Concert G and the Bb lines do the same today in Concert F (due to a favoritism of key signatures that settle in the open valve combinations).  That's merely 1 step difference between the typical Bb transposition written "A" screaming notes of the G era and the written "G" screaming notes of the Bb era.

The reasons for having G may be economical, but the necessity for the Key was required by the desire to play chromatic material.  I.E. if 2 valves / then G and if G / then 2 valves.  THEN, if 3 valves / then why G?... enter in the Bb/F horns.  It makes sense.

[DFA1970]

On 10/24/2022 at 10:35 AM, jjeffeory said:

Haha,

The instruments never "needed" to be in G. Those early organizations could have used regular concert band instruments from the beginning, but the story we're told is that there was a surplus of uniform and equipment after the wars of last century, so they've been in G until this century. Sure, they weren't bugles after valve and rotors were added, but a rose by any other name is still a rose... I personally don't feel that it is an important distinction. Now the difference in the overtone series and playing are noteworthy. That's certain something that was pointed out to many of us listening to greats like Donnie Van Doren explain how unique the sound was of the Gs, and pointing out the challenges of playing on those horns compared to concert instruments.

The instrument manufacturers added valves over a period of decades, so it didn't all happen at once; adding the third valve started in '90 with the high brass, and happened over the period of several years with the rest of the voices.  Another thing within the G horns is that was a large variety of bell front voices that aren't in play today. Sops, flugel bugles, mellophones, alto, frenchies, tromboniums, baritone, euphs, meehanphones,  contras, and whatever else crazy that BD tried and dominated DCI with in the 70s and 80s.  Now, we've homogenized into most lines having Trumpets, mellophones, baritones, euphoniums, and tubas.  Of course sometimes there are small french horn ensembles, the occasional flugel horn here and there, and the obligatory yearly trombone glissandos; but the lines today are pretty homogenized. Most of the ensemble musical timbre experimentation is now done in the pit and the hornline is just there, imho. Kudos to Cadets for using an Alto horn as a solo this past season though.

BD tried to dominate...They are dominating. They don't try...they DO!!!

[DAvery]

14 hours ago, cfirwin3 said:

Ehh.  That minor third drop brought the horn capabilities down far enough for brass players to play in the range appropriate for the music.  Of course, they didn't need to use G... and perhaps there was a wide availability of these horns at the beginning... but the G horns in limited valve configurations were self-justified until enough valves were present to make the key of G pointless for the instruments.  Playing a valve and rotor or 2 valves on the literature that they wanted required the key of G in order to make it work, etc.  If the horns were in D (if such a 2 valves musical animal existed), then the players (particularly the soprano voices) would be pushed out of a comfortable, accessible chromatic range.  G players and Bb players essentially top out in the same frequencies, with shared mouthpiece equipment.  G lines maxed out and hovered in Concert G and the Bb lines do the same today in Concert F (due to a favoritism of key signatures that settle in the open valve combinations).  That's merely 1 step difference between the typical Bb transposition written "A" screaming notes of the G era and the written "G" screaming notes of the Bb era.

The reasons for having G may be economical, but the necessity for the Key was required by the desire to play chromatic material.  I.E. if 2 valves / then G and if G / then 2 valves.  THEN, if 3 valves / then why G?... enter in the Bb/F horns.  It makes sense.

Weren’t bugles in the key of G because that was the key of the official Army bugle?

[IllianaLancerContra]

11 minutes ago, DAvery said:

Weren’t bugles in the key of G because that was the key of the official Army bugle?

I believe that is how it started - w/ WW1 surplus equipment.  At some point someone replaces the valveless tuning slide w/ a slide/piston combo.  At some point this became fixed, & a new tuning slide was added.  This was sanded down & lubed so it could play the G->F# half step; then this was replaced w/ rotary.   And mid-1970s the rules were changed to allow 2 piston valve.  But valve-rotor horns were used well into the 1980s.

[cfirwin3]

1 hour ago, DAvery said:

Weren’t bugles in the key of G because that was the key of the official Army bugle?

Yes, it was a traditional application, as I understand it.  But those bugles weren't supposed to play Copland and Stan Kenton.  The horns evolved with the desired repertoire needs and the key became an artifact rather than a feature.

[Bruckner8]

22 hours ago, cfirwin3 said:

Ehh.  That minor third drop brought the horn capabilities down far enough for brass players to play in the range appropriate for the music.  Of course, they didn't need to use G... and perhaps there was a wide availability of these horns at the beginning... but the G horns in limited valve configurations were self-justified until enough valves were present to make the key of G pointless for the instruments.  Playing a valve and rotor or 2 valves on the literature that they wanted required the key of G in order to make it work, etc.  If the horns were in D (if such a 2 valves musical animal existed), then the players (particularly the soprano voices) would be pushed out of a comfortable, accessible chromatic range.  G players and Bb players essentially top out in the same frequencies, with shared mouthpiece equipment.  G lines maxed out and hovered in Concert G and the Bb lines do the same today in Concert F (due to a favoritism of key signatures that settle in the open valve combinations).  That's merely 1 step difference between the typical Bb transposition written "A" screaming notes of the G era and the written "G" screaming notes of the Bb era.

The reasons for having G may be economical, but the necessity for the Key was required by the desire to play chromatic material.  I.E. if 2 valves / then G and if G / then 2 valves.  THEN, if 3 valves / then why G?... enter in the Bb/F horns.  It makes sense.

Yeah, very good takes. It doesn’t change the fact that those of us who grew up on G still prefer the sound. If you know, you know. For those who say they can’t tell the difference, more power to them. It’s kind of like having perfect pitch or not.

As time went on, and Bb lines got bigger, with higher percentages of tubas, I started to miss G lines less. (Crown 2008-2018, Bluecoats 2009-2018, SCV 2012-14, Cavies during those times.) The 2010s will go down as the Bb hornline glory days. (At least for me.)

Today, I don’t do drum corps anymore, although Bluecoats Alumni was fun! 

[Weaklefthand4ever]

19 hours ago, IllianaLancerContra said:

I believe that is how it started - w/ WW1 surplus equipment.  At some point someone replaces the valveless tuning slide w/ a slide/piston combo.  At some point this became fixed, & a new tuning slide was added.  This was sanded down & lubed so it could play the G->F# half step; then this was replaced w/ rotary.   And mid-1970s the rules were changed to allow 2 piston valve.  But valve-rotor horns were used well into the 1980s.

See I thought everything that I saw in the mid-late 80's was 2 valve. I never knew any of the history of this stuff so this is all super neat for me to hear. 

[IllianaLancerContra]

2 hours ago, Weaklefthand4ever said:

See I thought everything that I saw in the mid-late 80's was 2 valve. I never knew any of the history of this stuff so this is all super neat for me to hear. 

In 1970s there was a bit of a definitions issue.  Sometimes (depending on Corps) the rotary valve was called the rotor or trigger, not valve.   I guess because these Corps figured it had to be a piston valve to count as a valve.  The piston valves are mechanically simpler, and I suspect this was part of what was behind the switch to 2-piston horns.  The argument against switching was because 2 vertical piston valves changed the shape of the horn - looking like band instruments, not bugles.  We were in Drum & Bugle Corps, not a bando. 

[Weaklefthand4ever]

42 minutes ago, IllianaLancerContra said:

In 1970s there was a bit of a definitions issue.  Sometimes (depending on Corps) the rotary valve was called the rotor or trigger, not valve.   I guess because these Corps figured it had to be a piston valve to count as a valve.  The piston valves are mechanically simpler, and I suspect this was part of what was behind the switch to 2-piston horns.  The argument against switching was because 2 vertical piston valves changed the shape of the horn - looking like band instruments, not bugles.  We were in Drum & Bugle Corps, not a bando. 

I think I am going to youtube how rotary valves worked. In my head it sounds difficult to operate compared to a piston. Then again, I come from a background of "Mongo hit with stick....make boom sound." I mean there are definite technical elements with grip pressure, pivot regulation, etc etc etc. But nothing really complex.