When one judge calls the show

[ContraFart]

42 minutes ago, gbass598 said:

How do you define perfection in an artistic activity where judging is relatively subjective?

Here is the WGI visual sheets in question:

Note this under the Performance subcaption.

Ensemble Cohesiveness: The ability of the ensemble to establish and maintain control and stability, including adaptation

and recovery if necessary.

https://wgi.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/2020_WGI_Percussion_Visual-MPE_Scoresheetpdf.pdf

https://wgi.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/2020_WGI_Percussion_Effect-Visual-MPE-Scoresheet.pdf

 

So I guess you can get a perfect score by breaking my immersion in a show for 30 seconds because there was a crash and its like it never happened because she recovered? 

I may not be able to define perfection, but I know that when a huge fall happens, it's not perfect. I don't think it's that hard.

[Chief Guns]

If I am wrong please someone with more knowledge correct me..........

Didn't Cadets back in 1984 have a huge pileup on the field (Whitewater???) Yet they still received max score in visual?

My apologies if I am incorrect.

[GUARDLING]

10 hours ago, ContraFart said:

So if the judges only work with so many numbers, could it be possible the judge had that 20 on the sheet before RCC took the floor?

I kept on hearing over and over again in 2015 that BD won because they had the better show of the night. Why doesn't it apply with this?

Possible? we have heard those conspiracy theories for as long as drum corps has been in existence. With that said. One can have a better show and not win due to all the other factors and one can have a less than perfect show and come out on top. Many  sub-captions can affect overall decisions when putting a score down and most certainly affect other scores. Take for instance a drop or a fall like you said. Did the fall contribute to other issues at the moment? Did the error affect what was being presented? Did the error destroy whatever the effect was that they were trying to achieve? Did the error domino issue after issue. Sometimes it can often at that high skill level it doesn't.

I think we have a mindset from decades and decades ago that something like a minor mistake or a drop or fall excludes a corps from success ( and it did BITD) and it certainly can but it doesn't necessarily have to, depending on some of the other factors I mentioned. 

[GUARDLING]

46 minutes ago, ContraFart said:

So I guess you can get a perfect score by breaking my immersion in a show for 30 seconds because there was a crash and its like it never happened because she recovered? 

I may not be able to define perfection, but I know that when a huge fall happens, it's not perfect. I don't think it's that hard.

it seems like you are hooked on the word " Perfect" as I said it doesn't mean perfect, and as much as we BITD when we achieved that maxed out score of course we said we were " Perfect" now were we? I don't think so. Get passed that word perfect and just look at it as the highest score compared to others and it's easier to understand. Now I'm not saying in the case you mention that the right group was on top, things like that can be debated till the end of time.

[ContraFart]

57 minutes ago, GUARDLING said:

it seems like you are hooked on the word " Perfect" as I said it doesn't mean perfect, and as much as we BITD when we achieved that maxed out score of course we said we were " Perfect" now were we? I don't think so. Get passed that word perfect and just look at it as the highest score compared to others and it's easier to understand. Now I'm not saying in the case you mention that the right group was on top, things like that can be debated till the end of time.

First of all when you are that top level, the difference is in the margins, wouldn't a fall make a difference in that regard?

And yes I am concentrating on a perfect score. I know a perfect score does not mean perfect, but I would assume a judge would keep a 20 in their pocket if there was a major crash. I'm sorry you can't max out a sheet when there is a break as big as that.

I feel like I'm being gaslit by people saying that the fall wasn't a big deal and they still deserved a 20 in visual performance despite it. 

Either winning is about the performance on that given day or it's what it should have been despite egregious errors, it can't be both.

[ContraFart]

1 hour ago, GUARDLING said:

Possible? we have heard those conspiracy theories for as long as drum corps has been in existence. With that said. One can have a better show and not win due to all the other factors and one can have a less than perfect show and come out on top. Many  sub-captions can affect overall decisions when putting a score down and most certainly affect other scores. Take for instance a drop or a fall like you said. Did the fall contribute to other issues at the moment? Did the error affect what was being presented? Did the error destroy whatever the effect was that they were trying to achieve? Did the error domino issue after issue. Sometimes it can often at that high skill level it doesn't.

I think we have a mindset from decades and decades ago that something like a minor mistake or a drop or fall excludes a corps from success ( and it did BITD) and it certainly can but it doesn't necessarily have to, depending on some of the other factors I mentioned. 

There is a major difference between a rifle drop and falling down. CG drops happen in 75% of all shows performed. When it comes to DCI I can only think of 3 times in 50 years it happened during finals.

[rpbobcat]

4 minutes ago, ContraFart said:

There is a major difference between a rifle drop and falling down. CG drops happen in 75% of all shows performed. When it comes to DCI I can only think of 3 times in 50 years it happened during finals.

What about when a soloist's mike dies, and they don't penalize the corps ?

The justification   "we know what it would have sounded like"  really doesn't cut it.

 

[keystone3ply]

2 hours ago, Chief Guns said:

If I am wrong please someone with more knowledge correct me..........

Didn't Cadets back in 1984 have a huge pileup on the field (Whitewater???) Yet they still received max score in visual?

My apologies if I am incorrect.

You're correct.  1984 West Side Story Brass GE judge audio only around 13:25.  Think that's the picture in video during the "Z-Pull". 

 

 

Edited April 25, 2023 by keystone3ply
cx

[GUARDLING]

13 minutes ago, ContraFart said:

First of all when you are that top level, the difference is in the margins, wouldn't a fall make a difference in that regard?

And yes I am concentrating on a perfect score. I know a perfect score does not mean perfect, but I would assume a judge would keep a 20 in their pocket if there was a major crash. I'm sorry you can't max out a sheet when there is a break as big as that.

I feel like I'm being gaslit by people saying that the fall wasn't a big deal and they still deserved a 20 in visual performance despite it. 

Either winning is about the performance on that given day or it's what it should have been despite egregious errors, it can't be both.

 

Your 1st sentence is exactly right and what I mean. except you are ignoring all the other factors and just looking at 1 part of it. Was group A really in all aspects exactly equal to group B..before the error? One can say yes OR that can be debatable.

[ContraFart]

4 minutes ago, GUARDLING said:

 

Your 1st sentence is exactly right and what I mean. except you are ignoring all the other factors and just looking at 1 part of it. Was group A really in all aspects exactly equal to group B..before the error? One can say yes OR that can be debatable.

I am talking about a specific score from a specific judge who gave a 20 in visual to a group that had a major incident. I'm sorry, I have a problem with that.