BOA Bans Ensemble Amplification. Is DCI next?

[TOC]

3 hours ago, denverjohn said:

 Shane spent quite a bit of time hiding behind props waiting to come out for his "wink" moment, for example.

Remember back in 17(?) when posters mentioned that the miced SCV soloists spent more time moving props than playing.

[Vidal28Rdg]

5 hours ago, Lance said:

Yep.  Leaving weaker players off of harder passages isn't anything new in DCI, of course, but it's magnified now that standards of musicianship have gotten so high. 

It's pretty clear to me that DCI corps' solution will be to shrink sections down to a small handful of excellent players and then just mic them up.  It's already being tested more and more every year. Instead of having weaker players go and scatter/dance/move around equipment, just convert them to guard and crank up the amplification.  Duh.   Does double duty with reducing costs, making rehearsals more efficient, and maximizing the visual-heavy rubrics. 

I remember saying that Bloo's onesie/hatless look for downside up would become the norm quickly, and people on here told me I was jumping to conclusions.  I don't think the changes I'm anticipating will happen as quickly as that concept caught fire, but I do think it'll be faster than a lot of people think.  I honestly think most of today's fans and future fans will be perfectly fine with it if/when it does happen.

The aesthetic changes are frankly, less radical than reducing a hornline to 20-ish people. I don’t see this happening anytime soon, as I don’t see this being a popular change at all. It’d be much more foreign to its “little league” equivalent in high school marching band for that to be popular even with younger fans and audiences, many of these fans come from bands with large amounts of kids on the field, it’s not like this change would come about on the HS level since every kid is needing to take part in the project that is their show and a major of the music education they receive in the fall revolving around marching band, they need to be active performing participants. Older fans would revolt and simply not attend. Plus, the increased amplification would be more headache-inducing than simply having a hornline out there. I think this is far-fetched

[Lance]

51 minutes ago, Vidal28Rdg said:

 Older fans would revolt and simply not attend. Plus, the increased amplification would be more headache-inducing than simply having a hornline out there. 

Plenty of older fans left with the adoption of A&E.  Many on here got a petition together with thousands of signatures and even got a perfunctory audience with DCI powers.  Guess how much impact that had on what (back then) were enormous changes that people 15-20 years before would think far fetched?  The amount of A&E has doubled/tripled since then lol.  

And more "headache-incuding" for who?  Corps are already doing it for ever-increasingly large portions of shows, and I guarantee it's not because they want to have more headaches.  Again, many many people said the same thing about the mere adoption of A&E being more of a headache with setting up wires and amps and who's going to engineer it and on and on and on.  Even with disasters involving individuals mid-field mic'd, there was no penalty, so even less of a headache.  

I hope it's far fetched as much or more than anybody on here, believe me.  Part of the wonder (for me) of a Klesch or Downey special was having a big hornline blast away or have 50+ people play a soft passage and still sound like a mega pipe organ doing it, but that doesn't get rewarded anymore, so why bother both from a design and performance standpoint?  

Edited May 12, 2023 by Lance

[Vidal28Rdg]

56 minutes ago, Lance said:

Plenty of older fans left with the adoption of A&E.  Many on here got a petition together with thousands of signatures and even got a perfunctory audience with DCI powers.  Guess how much impact that had on what (back then) were enormous changes that people 15-20 years before would think far fetched?  The amount of A&E has doubled/tripled since then lol.  

And more "headache-incuding" for who?  Corps are already doing it for ever-increasingly large portions of shows, and I guarantee it's not because they want to have more headaches.  Again, many many people said the same thing about the mere adoption of A&E being more of a headache with setting up wires and amps and who's going to engineer it and on and on and on.  Even with disasters involving individuals mid-field mic'd, there was no penalty, so even less of a headache.  

I hope it's far fetched as much or more than anybody on here, believe me.  Part of the wonder (for me) of a Klesch or Downey special was having a big hornline blast away or have 50+ people play a soft passage and still sound like a mega pipe organ doing it, but that doesn't get rewarded anymore, so why bother both from a design and performance standpoint?  

My main point is that fans are on different points on the timeline in terms of the evolution of the activity. I’m definitely more on the tail end, circa. 2014 and onward. Some aspects of amplification seem normal to me, I don’t mind the pit being more audible, I don’t mind individual soloists being mic’d, I do happen to like vocalists even, I miss corps’ identifying uniforms and those more traditional elements to uniforms. Does it mean I like the soundscape of every corps this year and their implementation of electronic elements like synths having a “thunderous goo” kind of quality that has been described on here, no, not really, don’t hate all of the uses either. Not every corps sounds the same in person even still, some corps had those elements in much more subdued and tasteful quantities where I felt it didn’t detract from the acoustic elements. I say headache-inducing because wanting and being so close to the field in the stands I end up near the amps, the headaches I ever get from marching band/drum corps performances aren’t even from the winds, but from what I hear from the amps!! You can definitely tell who uses them more and which less so.
 

A drastic downsizing of the winds in drum corps would be just as foreign to fans on the younger side of the timeline as it would for the older fans, it’s not what they grow up experiencing and partaking in(except for perhaps wgi) but on the marching field, outside, you march and play the vast majority of your kids that you have in your program, as a requirement and a necessity of being a large part of the music education students receive is being a part of marching band in the fall, the social aspects, the culture building etc. etc. It’d be quite the shock to see that the activity most similar to that in drum corps not looking anything close to that, and no I’m not talking about there being no woodwinds, but there barely being any winds on the field, period. I simply can’t see that happening any time soon.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Vidal28Rdg

[cixelsyd]

20 hours ago, ZTWright said:

Please direct me to a video, and I will gladly admit defeat. 

Apologies.  I do not film tiny marching bands in anticipation of internet debates.

Quote

Was this band over 20 members and capable of having said instrument or were they smaller and less likely to have students who decided to pick up the trumpet as their instrument of choice? We just don't know. 

And I knew you would use that escape hatch.

True, there are a variety of reasons why a band might have no trumpets and use synth for that voicing instead.  For that matter, there are likely a variety of reasons why so many competing marching bands are so small.  It was not always that way.  I am told about our ancestors who marched way, way back, when you had to carry your instrument (you know, when "marching band" was a literal definition).  They did other strange things back in those days, like having the HS marching band perform a demonstration at the local middle school every year, and participating in hometown events, both for the sake of recruiting.  They could do those things because a literal marching band could perform virtually anywhere, even without a power feed.  Their bands were three times the size back then compared to now.

Funny how the more they embrace electronics and other "innovations", the smaller the bands get.  Wonder which is the cause and which is the effect?

Somewhere in all this fuss over what "innovations" certain people insist we must have to help 9-player marching bands succeed competitively, we seem to have forgotten that the whole point of music education was - education.  More education happens when the band has more than 9 players.

[Jeff Ream]

23 hours ago, drumcat said:

Hello… it's been a while.

First thing's first - let's applaud BOA for doing what it needs to do. If you read their statement, they're basically saying "you're cheating, and we see you". Good on them.

However, what we should do is dig into the subtlety of what's going on, and how for the marching arts we can move this forward.

IMO, they've laid down a challenge, but have forgotten the Piano Principle. I'll get to that, but I'm going to write this stuff out and *anyone* feel free to use it. I've been arguing this position for about 18 years, so it's not a difficult one to regurgitate, but there are some subtleties that might not be evident at first read.

REINFORCEMENT

This concept is where an analog sound is made louder to achieve a different balance. Initially brought (en masse) for pit instruments, this allows your 4 marimbas to be trimmed down to 2, and still be the same in the ensemble texture. Why is this good? Logistics for dropping 2 marimbas might be an annual budget savings that's material, and the wear of hard mallets protects the longevity of the instrument. When the Blue Devils did this the first time, they had one small amp per keyboard, and it was excellent. Now it's all evolved to scenes and two large stacks of amps. It's debatable that this is ideal for a number of reasons -- particularly because when techs talk about scenes, they're actively changing the volumes of microphones. The original intent of instrumental reinforcement was to raise the overall amplitude of specific quiet percussive instruments. Altering the volume takes away some player responsibility. Adding effects is altering the original signature of the instrument, and should be avoided. More on that...

Amplified voice has been a lightning rod since The Zone and The Cadets. In addition, it should be noted that the Blue Devils were also shown to have altered a voice amplification by taking "that laugh" down an octave but were not penalised --  and they won the title that year. Effects should 100% be off-limits, with some very light exceptions for equalisation that's set-and-forget, particularly with keyboards. Any digital signal processing that is intended to alter the timbre should be off limits.

In this statement by BOA, they are effectively saying that the bands are cheating, and they're right. In olden times, we'd call someone marching a spot but not really playing a "plug". It happened for several reasons, usually injury or someone quitting. What BOA is describing here is effectively mic every instrument, and play the ones that are better. This means that a band can easily and effectively have lots of plugs all over the field and still give a more full sound. It's my opinion that if all reinforcement was limited to the Pit Box, this would not be a problem. You can also give the 12-15 feet behind the Pit Box a pass so you can set up a STATIONARY mic for soloists. Drum corps and brass solos basically don't need this (though some might debate), it's definitely more reasonable for a clarinet solo as an example. If you don't allow wireless mics, or more specifically microphones cannot be moved/carried during a show, it eliminates this cheating.

SAMPLED vs PRE-RECORDED vs SEQUENCED

If you've made it this far, you're into it. Simply waving these three words together is a blunt exercise. Let's define them:

Sampled instrument - A set of recorded notes of an instrument that are intended to be played back to recreate a real instrument, often invoked through computer software and triggered by both analog and digital methods.

Pre-recorded - A playing of multiple notes, sounds, or a combination to emulate an instrument playing a passage with the musicianship as part of what is recorded. The playback of a passage.

Sequenced - The playing of a synthesiser or sampler with the automatic triggering of a digital ordering. It is the modern equivalent of a player-piano sheet. Invoking a sequence allows the playback of any passage without the need of memory or musicianship.

So this is where we come to the Piano Principle. If you want to have a piano sound, do you bring a piano? No; it's unreasonable. Should you bring a keyboard that can create these sounds? If you want a piano, it's the only reasonable thing to do. Should you allow a piano sound with a marching ensemble? That's a creative rule decision.

But what about a tympani, as was brought up? Maybe there should be some consideration to not having to bring tubs if you're only going to use it as an effect for a few seconds, etc. There is a correct method to interpret this, and a basic flow of questions would help put marching organisations back on the right path.

Is the instrument analog? If yes, is it allowed? For example, many associations don't allow double-reed instruments to be marched for safety. Assuming it's conventional, you allow it on the field.

Is your instrument in need of amplification/reinforcement? If it's a marched instrument, then it should only be allowed to have reinforcement by a solo-ing mic stand that is stationary. If it's a keyboard instrument, it should be reinforced, but the volumes should be maintained by the player, or should be set by a technician and left for the entirety of the show. No scenes. Technicians should only be given the option to turn a system off in case of malfunction.

If the instrument is a sample, there are some guidelines that should make it fairly simple to maintain musicianship. Notes should be played by the student. Volume should be played by the student. The motion of triggering a sound is done by the student, and triggering must be restricted to a physical implementation. For example, a pedal can be used to imitate a piano pedal. Pressing any button/key should cause a representative note/volume, and one press should be one sound. A sampled instrument should also be fully licensed and allowed for the use of playback without copyright concerns.

From this, an artistic question should be answered by the governing body - specifically where the sampling of instruments should be for a similar kind of trigger, and the instrument should not be equal to any other. You should not have a piano-style keyboard playing flute sounds when you have flutes on the field. You should not have a piano-style keyboard playing violin sounds. The implement should match, thus if someone was playing a tympani sample, it should be played in the manner a tympani would be played, and that's with a drum trigger.

Sampled instruments vs Sampling

Thus far, we've discussed sampled instruments, intending to be played back to represent its analog. Sampling can also be unrealistic. For example, sampling a car horn for an effect. The sound can be modulated, but it's not a traditional instrument. Ensembles should be encouraged to use the real thing when possible, and judged better when they do. Sometimes that's not realistic, so in the case where a sampled effect is used, **it should not be modulated**. This also applies for sampled instruments. If you sample a car horn that honks in F, it should not be used in other pitches, nor modulated or effected or signal-processed as part of a performance. Any non-analog instrument should not have effects used as part of the performance.

As part of this requirement, any sampled/digital sound needs to be triggered by a student, in real time, in the Pit Box, and should not be altered or adjusted by a technician.

Conclusion, for now

The overriding principle behind all of these considerations is universal; the virtuosity of the student shall not be altered, hidden, or improved by the use of technology. There are some logistical and artistic wins to be had, but the Huygens-Frenzel Principle is undefeated, and there's no room for cheating. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huygens–Fresnel_principle) Electronic sounds, even sampled analog sounds, need to work within the ensemble, and you cannot hide kids or over-present your best. The ensemble sound is what makes marching so amazing in person, and to effectively cheat and remove what is the soul of marching is something that I'm glad is finally having a stand made.

Think back to SCV doing Miss Saigon, and all the Foley work. That is the soul of marching arts. A quote that has always stuck with me is that "art is in the resistance of the materials". It's true; marching music isn't supposed to be push-button music box cranks. Moving forward intelligently can leave the soul of the art in a very good place, while providing artistic help and remove logistical nightmares.

I listened to this evolution over my years with DCI in the capacity of audio recording, and it's never been different at any level. Leave the musicianship to all the kids. That's why we love this activity.

all great points. but how do you enforce and actually prove the cheating?

[Jeff Ream]

15 hours ago, TheOneWhoKnows said:

You make a good point here and I understand the sentiment. I think cutting members off certain sections of music is still more organic than reinforcing those that are good. 

At least personally, getting cut off a part provides desire and will to improve to be put back on a part. 

"remember that part you USED to play here?"

[Jeff Ream]

13 hours ago, Lead said:

Easy to enforce, the same way DCI self-polices... you hang a penalty out there and let the other groups (who are also competing against you) report violations they see. After the first group gets dinged, it will stop happening.

 

For reference, see: Military Park, 2015 Prelims, Blue Devils 😆

wasn't it DCI staff that reported it? Same as Crossmens tenors wandering off the reservation?

 

and per the release, there is no penalty. so it's word salad.

[Jeff Ream]

11 hours ago, gbass598 said:

Just as with drum corps, high school marching is a battle of the haves and have nots.

Pretty much all highly successful BOA competing bands are in the Have A Lot of People category. As sad as it is, money is what makes the world go round and if your band program has money, it makes your job so much easier.

I don't think the fact its a public school or private matters that much. its all about the community support via money, time and something as simple as volunteer support. There are successful programs in public schools in all kinds of neighborhoods and there are also unsuccessful programs. Same with private schools. This can even occur in the same town/school district. Funding from the public school system only goes so far, it is definitely the ancillary fundraising done by support groups that take it to the next level.

corrected for you

[Vidal28Rdg]

1 hour ago, Jeff Ream said:

corrected for you

Good distinction and correction I think.