What happens first? (Boston and Mandarins)

[Chief Guns]

Just now, MarimbaManiac said:

but you seem to have a narrative you'd like to run with, so go with that.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. 

[CAtenhut]

55 minutes ago, MarimbaManiac said:

I won't deny that BD usually executes their product the best on a year to year basis. They have a great structural foundation and education pipeline that works for them, but to say they're at the top of design is just silly. It comes down to whether you want to reward a safe product executed marginally better, or a more exciting and risky product that might be marginally dirtier. The persistent bias in judging routinely over-rewards execution over design and effect. I'd say half of their medals over the last 20 years should have gone to another group, several years that were glaringly obvious, but you seem to have a narrative you'd like to run with, so go with that.

"Safe product"? You clearly do not pay enough attention to their show both musically and visually if you think they have a safe product. Their demand is higher than pretty much every other corps pretty much every single year. 

[jsd]

1 hour ago, MarimbaManiac said:

I won't deny that BD usually executes their product the best on a year to year basis. They have a great structural foundation and education pipeline that works for them, but to say they're at the top of design is just silly. It comes down to whether you want to reward a safe product executed marginally better, or a more exciting and risky product that might be marginally dirtier. The persistent bias in judging routinely over-rewards execution over design and effect. I'd say half of their medals over the last 20 years should have gone to another group, several years that were glaringly obvious, but you seem to have a narrative you'd like to run with, so go with that.

I would suggest you go and listen to any video the staff of BD has made about their approach to design. There is nothing "safe" about their approach. 

Just because lots of folks will say "just play music and march!" does not discount the level of thought and creativity that BD puts into their productions. 

And, yes. Most years it ends up being vastly superior to other corps. Why? Those pesky ideas of Elements of Art and Principles of Design, as well as theme, storytelling, and ideas that get fully fleshed out in the visual and musical activity that is Drum Corps. 

And, just to throw some snark in for good measure: count the rings.

[ThePlanets]

1 hour ago, MarimbaManiac said:

It will be much easier to break into the top three (especially with SCV gone), then it will be to overcome the persistent judging bias that has contributed to keeping BD on top for so long. 

[brassboy]

What makes BD powerful is their ability to make something difficult look easy. 

[MarimbaManiac]

12 minutes ago, jsd said:

I would suggest you go and listen to any video the staff of BD has made about their approach to design. There is nothing "safe" about their approach. 

Just because lots of folks will say "just play music and march!" does not discount the level of thought and creativity that BD puts into their productions. 

And, yes. Most years it ends up being vastly superior to other corps. Why? Those pesky ideas of Elements of Art and Principles of Design, as well as theme, storytelling, and ideas that get fully fleshed out in the visual and musical activity that is Drum Corps. 

And, just to throw some snark in for good measure: count the rings.

I pay plenty close attention thanks, and I've had a closer vantage point than most. Their packages are safe, from a demand perspective, and design style. They are definitely clean, but are consistently over-compensated for that, in my opinion.

Also they are never "vastly superior" than their competition. It's a game of inches and the top corps are always at comparable levels. We get it, you're a fan boy, but let's be realistic.

25 minutes ago, CAtenhut said:

Their demand is higher than pretty much every other corps pretty much every single year. 

That is objectively false.

3 minutes ago, brassboy said:

What makes BD powerful is their ability to make something difficult look easy. 

Too regularly, that's because they are doing easy things. 

Edited July 14, 2023 by MarimbaManiac

[valjean]

1 hour ago, MarimbaManiac said:

Their packages are safe, from a demand perspective, and design style.

I'm gonna go ahead and agree with this point, specifically the design angle. I lose track of BD shows over years.. they evolve very incrementally. That's fine, but I prefer corps who every year seem to be going for something completely different from the last. Is that riskier? Of course it is, and I respect the boldness of it.

Edited July 14, 2023 by valjean

[jsd]

6 minutes ago, MarimbaManiac said:

I pay plenty close attention thanks, and I've had a closer vantage point than most. Their packages are safe, from a demand perspective, and design style. They are definitely clean, but over consistently over-compensated for that, in my opinion.

Also they are never "vastly superior" than their competition. It's a game of inches and the top corps are always at comparable levels. We get it, you're a fan boy, but let's be realistic.

Too regularly, that's because they are doing easy things. 

"Fan boy"? That's what you are resorting to now? 

Cool. Please tell us what years BD won, who should have beat them, and why. 

Back on topic, I think Boston can win sometime soon (oh, wait...who is their creative designer?), and I think Mandarins will be the toast of Indy when it all is said and done. 

[MarimbaManiac]

4 minutes ago, jsd said:

"Fan boy"? That's what you are resorting to now? 

Cool. Please tell us what years BD won, who should have beat them, and why. 

Back on topic, I think Boston can win sometime soon (oh, wait...who is their creative designer?), and I think Mandarins will be the toast of Indy when it all is said and done. 

Just calling it like I see it. 

I'm not getting into a protracted argument with you, because honestly I don't really care. I don't need you to approve of my perspective, I have lots of hands on experience and pieces of paper to do that. However the fact that you think the BD staff is doing something "unique" in their approach to design process is funny.

You know these people all work together right? Like filter through the lower corps, band programs, colleges, senior corps, etc. and most of these designers are working with one another on other projects. The design process they use is pretty ubiquitous across the activity, you thinking otherwise is a product of marketing.  

Edited July 14, 2023 by MarimbaManiac

[MarimbaManiac]

8 minutes ago, valjean said:

I'm gonna go ahead and agree with this point, specifically the design angle. I lose track of BD shows over years.. they evolve very incrementally. That's fine, but I prefer corps who every year seem to be going for something completely different from the last. Is that riskier? Of course it is. But I respect the boldness of it

Yeah, they tend to blend together. Sometimes it's objectively fantastic, but mostly they're just kind of the same.