The Anti-Narration BD Thread

[MikeD]

i apologize Mike i didnt mean you personally. I meant those that attack anti amps people for saying we hate it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh, OK...attacks on people either way is, IMO, wrong. We each like what we like.

Mike

[MikeD]

You are wrong...very wrong.  DCI has already lost fans over this, and if we ever reach a day where the majority of the top 12 are using amped vocals, they will lose me as a fan, and I will be replaced by someone younger.

Lots of us legacy types still at shows. Just about every change I have seen has caused some people to throw up their hands and walk away...but that's normal, IMO. That number is, IMO statistically insignificant as compared to all of those who do NOT leave.

As for you personally, it's your right to give up on junior corps if it becomes something you do not like. I myself find it kind of odd that someone would leave over something so innocuous., but that's just MY opinion.

These kids only see this as the "norm" because they haven't been around for years, like many of us fans have.  They like it, and we do not.  And no, I will NOT "get over it". 

Well, I started in 1964...is that long enough? I have seen so many changes that this one is just one more along the way for me. It's not even that big a deal, IMO. For me, the radical changes made in the 70's far outweigh this.

You are assuming that all of us that do not like amped voice in drumcorps don't even listen to it before we make the judgement...WRONG!  I have listened to BD's show, and in my opinion, the narration in it is TERRIBLE.  I hate it.

No, I am assuming that the person I was responding to had not listened to what they were dismissing.

You listened to BD and hated it...fine. There have been lots of things over the years in drum corps I haven't like about a particular corps or individual part of a show.

Mike

[pags]

funny they seemed to say 18k 2 years ago.

so which is it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've been there for the past 3 years. They announced 11,000 two years ago. I don't recall last year's because I know attendance was down from not having the full-day, all-Div I-corps event like in 2003 and this year.

[pags]

so why is it evil when we bring up how much we hate amps, yet it's ok when he proposes #### to make DCI Boa Summer division?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Because he makes his proposals in a civilized manner to a group of people willing to engage in meaningful discussions as to why/why not the proposed change should take place. My experience with a great deal of the anti-amps crowd is that many responses have been uncivilized and heavy of emotion and subjectivity, lite on fact and objectivity.

[Guest DrumCorpFan]

Mike nailed it at the bottom of page 15.  It's not about amps, it's about the mindset of many of those who want amps gone.  When you look around the stands and see thousands of band kids, it's because they want to see a drum corps show.  And that fact hasn't changed, even with the addition of amps.  It doesn't incite them into making any threats of boycott.  If these kids have that mindset, why don't the "adults"? 

Now I know that people of all different generations can be pro-amp or anti-amp, but in general there are two distinct mindsets.  One is the recognition that change occurs.  Change has always occured.  That is not to say that change must be made simply for the sake of change.  It is simply the recognition that change occurs, and drum corps as it exists today, the drum corps that they fell in love with, would not exist if change had not occured.  A great many changes have occured in every era, even before the idea of DCI was first conceived.  If drum corps could be said to have had an original form, that form would have been as unrecognizable in, say, 1970 as it is today.  Change made drum corps in the 60's what it was, and change shaped drum corps in the 70's, 80's, 90's, and again in 2004.  As a result, each era had a version of drum corps that they could call their own.  Those of us who aren't bothered by the presence of amps recognize this process, and realize that the next generation is laying its claim on drum corps, and carrying on the line by making it their own.

The second mindset is reactionary response, the mindset that clearly an activity with amps is "not" drum corps.  This is a funny claim, because before amps you could put these same people in a room and they would likely still find a spot where drum corps ceased to be drum corps.  For some it would be when the pit was grounded.  For others, it would be when guard started dancing.  Still others gave up when Bb was introduced.  And some undoubtedly gave up when horns added a valve.  Now, I know I'm going to hear the line that just because you're against amps doesn't mean you're against all change.  That's very true.  Every type of person I mentioned had an amount of change that they were willing to accept.  But they all had the change that they were simply not willing to accept, either.  The anti-ampers might not be against all change, but they are against some change, a very specific change.  In other words, they have a version of drum corps that they lay claim to, and they don't want to see that version of drum corps slip away.  When they feel their version is threatened, they fight back, as we have seen with the petition, the threats of boycott, and the derogatory words on these boards.  Every generation has had its traditionalists, and every change has been met with boycott and exodus.  Yet every change has also been accepted, even welcomed, by those from every generation who realize that the activity is whatever we choose to make of it.

Now, ask yourself, which version of drum corps did you like the best?  Did you like the rip your face off intensity of the 70's, when if you played it you had to march it?  Did you like the artistry and true-to-the-original arranging of the 80's?  Did you like drum corps when it was still in G, before 2000?  Did you like drum corps when it was still acoustic, before 2004?  We all have the version that we are most fond of.  But when I look at those bands kids, and especially when I look at the members on the field, I see people who are a part of the activity because they feel the best is yet to come and they want to be a part of it.  The anti-ampers had their version of drum corps, which would not have existed but for the changing of the version before.  I think the next crop of fans deserves their own version of drum corps as well.  And who knows;  if you open yourself up a little bit, you might find that you enjoy it.  Certainly more people find themselves accepting amps, and even narration, with every passing day.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

First of all, thank you for recognizing that being against one change does not mean being against all changes. I believe if things changed more slowly, less people would feel disenfranchised ($2 to the Bush/Gore election). Certainly change is going to happen, but why does it have to be crammed? In a couple of years the directors will be "bored" with this change and insist on electronic instruments. A couple of years after that it will be woodwinds are an absolute must for creativity. Within 10 years, you will have marching bands and the only difference is that they will be all-star bands who dedicate more time to their program. I can live with the amped pits, I have said so several times. I don't like the voice on the field and didn't like it before it was amped. There are other places where I go to enjoy the human voice.

As far as your other question, I enjoy the detail to execution of the '70s, the true to composer arrangements of the '80s, the visual push of the '90s. I would absolutely love to see those elements combined. Someone else will say they are, but not in the way I would like to see it. And yes, I like a tough, in your face show design contrasted with moments of delicate beauty. Of recent, Phantom Regiment has best designed shows as I would like to see them. A little more visual demand (if executed) would surge them much higher than their already decent positions.

[Guest DrumCorpFan]

Question, when did Phantom start using amps? They didn't have them in Denver. Seattle DEFINETELY is amping their pit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Within the last couple of weeks.

[Guest DrumCorpFan]

I couldn't see any mics on the equipment for Seattle, but I've only seen them once.  I'm pretty darn sure that Phantom and SCV aren't.  I've seen Phantom several times...I'll check again tonight in Murfreesboro.  And I'll check others tomorrow in Indy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Phantom just started amping mid-summer. SCV has been amped since last year.

[Guest DrumCorpFan]

My experience with a great deal of the anti-amps crowd is that many responses have been uncivilized

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Then come talk to me.

[Guest DrumCorpFan]

I myself find it kind of odd that someone would leave over something so innocuous., but that's just MY opinion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Innocous to you Mike. I actually wish I had your flexibility to accept this change. You will be able to passionately enjoy this activity much longer than I will. That is your advantage.

[corpsreps]

Lots of us legacy types still at shows. Just about every change I have seen has caused some people to throw up their hands and walk away...but that's normal, IMO. That number is, IMO statistically insignificant as compared to all of those who do NOT leave.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Curious what you would consider statistically significant. 30,000 to 40,000 at finals in the early 80s. 13,000 to 16,000 in the late 90s. That's a drop of roughly 20,000 fans attending finals. Of course not all of them were legacy types who left because of changes. But not all of the fans in the late 90s were around in the early 80s, so there's some new people there. Seems reasonable to me to conclude that half the audience from 1983 stopped following the activity in just 15 years. It is quite likely more people left (of course, not all because of programming or rule changes) than stayed. Seems statistically significant to this actuary.

Now I'm with you in being a legacy fan and enjoying much of what constitutes drum and bugle corps these days. But I feel for the fans who've been "driven away" by equipment, rule changes and programming. Perhaps it is because I correspond with so many of these people. They write to me because they find some little piece of drum corps history they find meaningful on corpsreps. Very often they express the sentiment that DCI changed too much. I know that's not a scientific survey but I hear that story regularly. You and others on DCP seem to view these folks as disposable and replaceable. DCI seems to view them that way too. I think that's sad.