What do you really want out of DCI

[jwillis35]

I did not see the original comment to which you are referring so I am not defending the post you reference. However your thoughtful comments left me wondering about a few things and I share this now FYI, if you care to consider it.

The line between "confidence" and "arrogance" is not always clean and the act of creating at the very least requires confidence (in vision, in articulation...) but that process of creating is often imbued with arrogance (think Beethoven, Liszt, Mahler, Schoenberg, et al) who rejected certain aspects of the past...indeed even mocked them...and interjected their vision or version of "right" over the current paradigm or practice.

IMHO there is a certain arrogance amoung drum corps staff who create "artsy fartsy" shows at the expense of distancing their audience. As a fairly high-brow guy myself, I generally dig the "artsy fartsy" shows (long live Garfield, Blue Knights, Glassmen, Santa Clara, etc.) but that doesn't preclude an awareness that those with more ordinary tastes are being excluded.

Does drum corps--as an entertainment--have a responsibility to common tastes or is it art which has a responsibility only to itself? Every year we see examples of corps which balance this line with amazing deftness and dexterity. Clearly drum corps benefits from the visions and energies of artists, but I wonder if the medium itself is really better off in the realm of "entertainment" making the need for "creating" far less important. It becomes a question of craft, not genius...skill, not invention.

I applaud you on this very fine response, and I agree with just about all that you say here.

To me, being artistic does not mean one is being arrogant, but I can certainly see how such confidence in design or ideas can be interpreted that way. And you are absolutely right about those composers, all of whom wanted to bring their own ideas to the art of composition. But I would suggest that whatever arrogance or confidence they had was not used to hurt their craft, but to enhance it and further it. So it's not arrogance for the sake of hurting the activity. We have fans today that feel designers are trying to hurt the activity, and I don't see that. I don't see their confidence as being harmful but more as being open-ended.

The problem is that many who are loyalists to an older form of this activity will see any change as a purposeful attempt to harm drum corps. This is why a few famous corps people tend to take a beating on this forum. Perhaps they are idealists, confident, always searching for the next best thing, but I don't think they desire to hurt the activity. If they are in deed arrogant, as you say, it is not a bad arrogance but one that pushes their desire to help. I guess that is the only thing I disagree with you on. Knowing many of the instructors out there, I just don't see them as arrogant or confident in a bad way. I think they all love this activity. One cannot contribute if they are to be no more than robots, especially those involved in the design and teaching of the show. They must have some say and some license to change, tweak, to try new things, otherwise things become stagnant and bored. It's about the kids and the fans for sure, but those kids grow up to be well-educated musicians, designers, teachers, etc., and they desire to bring their own passion back to an activity that gave them so much. We should encourage that because they are the future of this activity.

JW

[endyxxix]

I think DCI needs to reign in the rapidity of rule changes. Too many changes too quickly I believe has led to the culture war in the drum corps activity. And there is indeed one being waged. I am not against change....but the rule changes come too fast and furious. Example....amplification is just beginning to be explored but IMO has a long way to go before the best way to make use of it is realized, yet already there is a lot of consternation over woodwinds. Wouldn't it be wiser to learn our lessions from amplification first? Perhaps rule changes should only be on the table every 2,3 or 4 years to give the fans time to digest it and the creative staffs time to maximize its usefullness?

The constant push from the designers to push the envelope is a desirable trait. But there is no counter balance. Since the corps have TOTAL say on the rules, and the fan base NONE, it is easier to expand the envelope than to figure out how to get more into the existing envelope. You can't build a fan base if you cannot bring some stability to what one can expect to see. Most fans see no more than a couple of shows a years. More still only one or two every couple of years. Hard to keep a fan who comes back in a couple years to expecting to see one thing and getting another.

For what it's worth here's my .02 on another aspect of this war. I dare say that the majority of us who marched in drum corps more than 10-15 years or so ago would be unable to march today due to the cost. DCI today is NOT a youth activity in the sense it was many years ago. Today it is an activity reserved only for those with the private training and financial resources to participate. Much like Interlochen and others. There are fewer participants because fewer can afford it. It's also why, I believe, most of the kids that miss the cut for the major corps do not elect to go to another corps. The top dog or bust because it's too expensive to settle for other than what you wanted.

These are observations and suggestions that obviously will be shot down in glorious flames of vitiol and condecension. Mostly from anonymous sources. Hopefully there are some out there will take it as intended. Observations on the current state of DCI. Nothing more. Nothing less.

[Stryfe]

I think DCI is doing just fine. They have taken drastic steps in recent years to enhance their revenue, to enhance the fan experience, especially with their web site, Season Pass and more, and the Cinecast productions; and DCI is expanding in some areas while cutting back in others that no longer fit the bill.

...

Times change, people change, rules change, and in an activity like this one, artistry changes. If you can't handle change or if your needs are not being met, then I suggest, as George Carlin once stated, you drop some of your needs. This sounds harsh, but only because we choose to look at it this way. In reality, the person who needs G bugles, less dance, no electronics and no amplification, no singing, no play-acting, no artsy-fartsy shows, just balls-to-the-walls brass and drums as often, as loud, as high, and as exposed as possible, is someone whose needs are not only limiting for the activity, but they become the antithesis of what DCI has been from day one. They see their needs as upholding the tradition of the activity, yet the activity has been changing since day one. Exactly where is the cutoff point for all that change for which we can hang our definition of the activity and proudly pronounce, as we pound on our chest, that this is DCI and nothing more will be accepted?

...

And to the person who clearly indicated that these artists who desire change and such are acting out of arrogance, I will suggest to you that being artistic is not an act of arrogance. It could be stated, however, that one who enforces his/her rationale for what drum corps should be is acting more out of arrogance and perhaps an inability to work with others. Artists, hence field designers, composers and arrangers, and the like are always looking for ways to enhance and create the new. This is no more arrogant than a school teacher using different methods of teaching in order to get through to a student. It's as simple as this: don't define DCI for me and I will not define it for you, but in the course of evolution and economic change there are certain realities that will alter the activity in both ways we like and don't like, and we may have little control over that. Only time can heal some of those wounds, if they really are wounds, and only those involved control the future. There will always be the bad with the good, and I suspect that was true in the 50s and 60s as well.

RAmen.

and what do I want out of DCI... well, to let me in! :P (when the time comes)

Out of the organization, I want them to keep up the good work.

[MikeD]

I think DCI needs to reign in the rapidity of rule changes. Too many changes too quickly I believe has led to the culture war in the drum corps activity. And there is indeed one being waged. I am not against change....but the rule changes come too fast and furious. Example....amplification is just beginning to be explored but IMO has a long way to go before the best way to make use of it is realized, yet already there is a lot of consternation over woodwinds. Wouldn't it be wiser to learn our lessions from amplification first? Perhaps rule changes should only be on the table every 2,3 or 4 years to give the fans time to digest it and the creative staffs time to maximize its usefullness?

What culture war? A few people on internet forums and a percentage-few who sign one petition is hardly a 'culture war'.

Changes are not coming all that fast and furious...it took a dozen years for amps to get passed. Electronics still hasn't...and WW are quite far out in the future.

The constant push from the designers to push the envelope is a desirable trait. But there is no counter balance. Since the corps have TOTAL say on the rules, and the fan base NONE, it is easier to expand the envelope than to figure out how to get more into the existing envelope. You can't build a fan base if you cannot bring some stability to what one can expect to see. Most fans see no more than a couple of shows a years. More still only one or two every couple of years. Hard to keep a fan who comes back in a couple years to expecting to see one thing and getting another.

As compared to the 70's, show design concepts are relatively stable in recent history. And, as DCI is targeting the band crowd, keeping in line with the type of shows bands are doing is a good thing, IMO. The legacy fans still come out...shows I attend, and reviews here on DCP...stilll talk about a mix of old and new in the audience.

For what it's worth here's my .02 on another aspect of this war. I dare say that the majority of us who marched in drum corps more than 10-15 years or so ago would be unable to march today due to the cost. DCI today is NOT a youth activity in the sense it was many years ago. Today it is an activity reserved only for those with the private training and financial resources to participate. Much like Interlochen and others. There are fewer participants because fewer can afford it. It's also why, I believe, most of the kids that miss the cut for the major corps do not elect to go to another corps. The top dog or bust because it's too expensive to settle for other than what you wanted.

Not sure when you marched, but as compared to my marching era (64-72)....with the rise in competitive marching band there are far more kids marching and competing today than ever before. Drum corps has indeed become the 'marching junkie' Interlochen...the question is whether that is good or bad. IMO DCI had two choices...either change the model as small corps failed all over the country with no replacements...or watch drum corps die out completely.

These are observations and suggestions that obviously will be shot down in glorious flames of vitiol and condecension. Mostly from anonymous sources. Hopefully there are some out there will take it as intended. Observations on the current state of DCI. Nothing more. Nothing less.

You are entitled to your opinion. Actually, here on DCP I think more will agree with you than with me.

[DCImonkey]

I'd love to see more parity in DCI. I know there is very little they can do about this with the exception of overhauling the judging system, but it sure would be nice to see the Bluecoats, Crowns, and Crusaders of the world take home a ring every now and again.

[Achilles]

What do I want from DCI? The only things I think I have a right to ask for as a fan:

- more shows

- more better shows (more top flight corps at non-regional-qualifier shows)

- cheaper tix? yeah that and an income tax reduction

Can't ask for more corps - DCI doesn't control that any more than it does the color of the sky.

But since we're asking: several (not just one) truly regional drum corps circuits for the Div. II/III - entry level corps. Say, NE, Pac NW, SoCal, Midwest, South. The Div. I corps need not attend.

<puts down crack pipe>

Edited March 27, 2007 by Achilles

[drumcat]

What culture war? A few people on internet forums and a percentage-few who sign one petition is hardly a 'culture war'.

Well, considering your minimizing this forum's opinions, and that your view on electronics is consistently opposed five-to-one, you’re swimming in a very small fish bowl. You’re nowhere close to a majority, but to your credit, you share an opinion with ten important people. Because of that, you shouldn’t ignore that the vast majority of people here will feel as though drum corps culture is indeed being altered rapidly.

In 1999, we were playing in G. By 2005, we’re playing with Bb & amped vocals, on a more nationalized touring schedule, and on ESPN. That’s rapid change, given the activity was essentially the same since ticks were removed.

[MikeD]

Well, considering your minimizing this forum's opinions, and that your view on electronics is consistently opposed five-to-one, you’re swimming in a very small fish bowl. You’re nowhere close to a majority, but to your credit, you share an opinion with ten important people. Because of that, you shouldn’t ignore that the vast majority of people here will feel as though drum corps culture is indeed being altered rapidly.

I don't ignore them, I disagree with them. I don't care what they think, as I doubt you/they care what I think. It's just MHO. The vast majority here are just a tiny fraction of the total audience for drum corps, so IMO their POV is irrelevant.

As for the culture being altered...I totally disagree with that, even going back to pre-DCI. Members are experiencing many of the same things I did in the 'culture' area...to a heightened level, given the touring schedule.

In 1999, we were playing in G. By 2005, we’re playing with Bb & amped vocals, on a more nationalized touring schedule, and on ESPN. That’s rapid change, given the activity was essentially the same since ticks were removed.

DCI has been nationalized for far longer than since 1999.

What does ESPN have to do with 'rapid change' to drum corps itself?

Look at drum corps from 1997 and then in 2007....then look at it in 1971 and again in 1981.

[drumcat]

I don't ignore them, I disagree with them. I don't care what they think, as I doubt you/they care what I think. It's just MHO. The vast majority here are just a tiny fraction of the total audience for drum corps, so IMO their POV is irrelevant.

And considering your opinion is supported by five times fewer, how vastly irrelevant is your POV?

[MikeD]

And considering your opinion is supported by five times fewer, how vastly irrelevant is your POV?

Looking at show attendance my POV seems to be pretty much in line with the fans at shows as well as the corps admins.