Disrespect Between Members of Different Eras

[jjeffeory]

Well, you're right. It could turn bad. But since you mentioned it, I figured I may as well respond. I was really hoping you could tell me what that magic age when it's okay to start being disrespectful is? I look forward to the day I'm old enough to say I know what is best for all and can tell others that what they did is not as good as it was when I did it, and that it's acceptable for me to say it. So if you could just tell me what that date is, I'd sure be appreciative.

I mean, really. Did you read what you wrote, and REALLY can tell me that you think that's right? Not necessarily the other way around? That's a joke and I missed it because of the internet, right?

This is sooooo off topic… Sorry persons…

I thought this forum was about drum corps, but I see we’re interested in sociology too…

It’s funny that you ask a question about respect. Today, I saw a 50ish year old man being inappropriately accosted and basically disrespected by his 70+ year old father in public about an issue pertaining to the raising of the 50+ year olds 16 year old son; and he took it without being disrespectful. I know these details because the older gentleman was speaking rather loudly. The younger man didn’t agree with his father, but he didn’t disrespect him either. Think about it… That’s a good skill to develop!

So, to answer your question, Iplaytimpani, there is no cut and dry answer. There is no magic age where you just get to be a jerk and treat everyone badly... Maybe there are events where you get to… I mean, you could probably get away with being a jerk after losing a limb, or something major like that. Otherwise I say, give respect, and you'll generally get it... Also, it’s not about “getting” respect. It’s about being the best person that you can be. We’re all so material these days. Why is it that people do things to get something rather than doing something they feel is good or right?

To me, age doesn’t matter in this regard either. If you disagree with someone, be professional about it. Whining, belittling, name calling & other sundry personal attacks are not kosher… That's my point. Many of the people posting online on DCP DON'T have respect. They don’t seem to have limits. Age doesn't really matter either... Young and old posters both are obnoxious and just plain mean to one another… After all, you can say anything on here and there are no consequences. It’s not real life…

You seem to be going after me… Where have I ever posted, “what they did is not as good as it was when I did it”? Please, point it out… I’ve said that corps now and corps from the 70s, 80s, 90s, and now are different…. I’ve said that many times…. I’ve also said that I don’t think corps now are really any better than when I marched. I don’t think they’re worse. Is that offensive and disrespectful? I mean, is it? I think the lower placing corps are doing more visually now than in the past… I think that the process of doing drum and bugle corps has improved over the last 30 years. Is any of this a bad thing? In my previous post here, I was responding to Mr. Ds statement about “making sure older people make sure they treat those of the current day with respect”. I would think one would want to make sure that EVERYONE treats EVERYONE with respect….

Have I written something truly offensive, or have I simply conveyed an idea which was similar to something someone else said that really ticked you off and you just want to harass me a little to get some of that anger off of your chest? Well, go ahead…

Oh and another thing…

Didn’t your parents ever tell you to respect your elders? I mean, it’s cliché… If the statement has been said so much in the past that’s it’s become cliché, it probably has level of merit. Obviously there are people who are older than you who don’t DESERVE respect. You’re going to encounter them all your life. I’ve encountered them all my life. It happens. But shouldn’t the default state of being be to give respect first, and go from there as needed???

And since we’re being so philosophical here….

The concept of respect is a socially engineered behavior passed down over the ages. It’s not an innate human trait. It’s something that needs to be taught from early childhood.

Do we have any sociologist here? Have you ever encountered the spoiled brat, who is handed the world and doesn’t appreciate it? You know the one who goes around walking all over his mother and father, demanding this and that. I’ve worked with families where these kids abuse their parents. And it’s almost always the parents’ fault their children are messed up. These kids tend to have problems later in life. Trying to get back somewhat on topic…

I realize that corps people are some the “best” people at their schools. Their maturity level is higher than the average 18 year olds. However, when I was 18, most of my peers had raging hormones and limited vision. However, with life experience and training most of them grew out of this and are good citizens. This is what drum corps can help with most of all. Are kids now-a-days different than a decade or so ago? I don’t think they are that much. They are exposed to more advertising from various directions, but I think they are a little more sophisticated because of it. Is this a good thing? I’m not sure. There a rights of passage that we all must go through in life to get where we want to be, and I do feel that having more life experience gives one more authority and more credibility…. Ultimately more RESPECT.

My main point for commenting was that I don’t want the act of placating to be confused with the act of giving respect. They are different. If you feel that “adults” or older members of the forum are "bashing" the younger members, then that is not a good thing. How are the older members bashing the “kids”? What specifics can you give? How are the “old timers” being disrespectful? I’m really just curious. I think there are people who post things on here that are mean. Maybe I don’t read enough of the posts. Is it that they don’t like amps, asymmetrical drill, or what? Did someone personally attack you? What do you mean by respect? I believe what I wrote was fine; certainly not bashing. Hopefully you or others didn’t take it as attacking. Okay, back to reading the next round of ‘discussions’ on DCP and looking forward to every show!

Respect is...listening with out interrupting

Respect is...taking other people's feelings into consideration

Respect is...keeping an open mind

Respect is...agreeing to disagree

Respect is...trying to understand other people’s point of view

Respect is...loving yourself

Respect is...trust and honesty

Respect is...giving each other space

Respect is...nonviolence

Respect is...direct communication

Respect is...building a person up instead of tearing them down

Respect is...friendship

Respect is…not pressuring the other person

[jjeffeory]

For me it's not about respecting elders or respecting younger people, but I respect doers more than diders and that includes myself. They are the ones busting their ##### every day all summer while we sit around and critique every little thing they do. That doesn't mean I don't respect what came before, even the parts I don't personally enjoy, but the current members are the ones that are getting off their ##### and participating in a life changing activity right now and I think it's a #### shame that people who marched in the past would come onto a message board that some of these kids read and cowardly tell them from behind a computer that what they do is not drum corps. Drum corps is more than a certain instrumentation and I truly feel sorry for those who used to march who have lost sight of that fact.

I understand what you're saying regarding respecting doers more than diders... The doers are doing it right now. It's hard. It's a blast. It's life changing. We can do it better than it's ever been done before! Gosh, it's almost like an old Kung-Fu movie, or Jedi training... Except in those movies the old guys get some respect.

However, that's a pretty gloomy statment for the diders who can't do it anymore but have a wealth of experience to guide the doers. It's nice not having history repeat itself. It's nice to learn from the past mistakes of others... So much for "wisemen". It seems like you're saying that they don't deserve respect anymore since they're not doing it. I mean, forget about the founding fathers. Forget about the guy who invented the internal combustion engine. What have they done for us lately?

[jjeffeory]

Well, I mean... your assertion that members nowadays know nothing about the past pretty much... is completely wrong. Like I said, I owned the entire Legacy Collection (that's 1972-1999) before I had even marched a year of drum corps. Scouts from the mid-late 70's were some of the first shows I heard and some of my favorites for a long time.

So while it may help your argument, the statement that current members know very little about past corps is pretty much dead wrong.

I think you are an exception. How many of your peers are as well rounded as you? I've read posts from people on here asking about various themed shows and how they would be cool or fresh and innovative, when they've been done before. I think I read a post talking about how they wish more corps would play Porgy and Bess or whatever.... I don't mind people being uninformed, but it would be nice when people who know that Porgy and Bess has been played quite of few times, for example, to be able to say that it's been done in the past without getting in trouble for bragging about how good Star '88s version was. It seems to turn into Star's 1988 version was better than BDs '05 version or Bluecoats '98 .

I think that one way that arguments get started. What begins as information sharing turns into flame wars over which show was best. What I think should be done in this situation is that the parties should check out the shows and analyze the content. Break it down however you want between its visual & musical merits, but don't take it as a stupid old skool versus new school thing. And I think this goes for the Old Schoolers, Golden Skoolers, and the GNew Skoolerzszszss! LOL... Hey, a great thing to do would be to find something good to say about each show. I know it takes effort, but we should try it.

[dbc03]

I understand what you're saying regarding respecting doers more than diders... The doers are doing it right now. It's hard. It's a blast. It's life changing. We can do it better than it's ever been done before! Gosh, it's almost like an old Kung-Fu movie, or Jedi training... Except in those movies the old guys get some respect.

However, that's a pretty gloomy statment for the diders who can't do it anymore but have a wealth of experience to guide the doers. It's nice not having history repeat itself. It's nice to learn from the past mistakes of others... So much for "wisemen". It seems like you're saying that they don't deserve respect anymore since they're not doing it. I mean, forget about the founding fathers. Forget about the guy who invented the internal combustion engine. What have they done for us lately?

But I specifically said that I do respect those that came before.

I respect what they did, I do not respect their choice to bash today's activity.

That is specifically aimed at those who feel a need to stand up on their pedestal and say "Back in my day we did drum corps, not summer marching band" or whatever drivel they spew.

[Iplaytimpani]

So, to answer your question, Iplaytimpani, there is no cut and dry answer. There is no magic age where you just get to be a jerk and treat everyone badly... Maybe there are events where you get to… I mean, you could probably get away with being a jerk after losing a limb, or something major like that. Otherwise I say, give respect, and you'll generally get it... Also, it’s not about “getting” respect. It’s about being the best person that you can be. We’re all so material these days. Why is it that people do things to get something rather than doing something they feel is good or right?

To me, age doesn’t matter in this regard either. If you disagree with someone, be professional about it. Whining, belittling, name calling & other sundry personal attacks are not kosher… That's my point. Many of the people posting online on DCP DON'T have respect. They don’t seem to have limits. Age doesn't really matter either... Young and old posters both are obnoxious and just plain mean to one another… After all, you can say anything on here and there are no consequences. It’s not real life…

You seem to be going after me… Where have I ever posted, “what they did is not as good as it was when I did it”? Please, point it out… I’ve said that corps now and corps from the 70s, 80s, 90s, and now are different…. I’ve said that many times…. I’ve also said that I don’t think corps now are really any better than when I marched. I don’t think they’re worse. Is that offensive and disrespectful? I mean, is it? I think the lower placing corps are doing more visually now than in the past… I think that the process of doing drum and bugle corps has improved over the last 30 years. Is any of this a bad thing? In my previous post here, I was responding to Mr. Ds statement about “making sure older people make sure they treat those of the current day with respect”. I would think one would want to make sure that EVERYONE treats EVERYONE with respect….

Have I written something truly offensive, or have I simply conveyed an idea which was similar to something someone else said that really ticked you off and you just want to harass me a little to get some of that anger off of your chest? Well, go ahead…

No, I'm not just going after you. You were the one that made the statement, so you got quoted and responded to. That's generally how a forum works. And really, I agree a lot with what you're saying. I think you should be respectful, and hopefully, it's returned. It's not about "getting" it. But, when someone is disrespectful, and especially on a personal level after not being provoked, why should you have to play nice all the time? Especially on this forum, where people are educated on the activity. Quick story, totaly relevant. Last night I was out to dinner with my girlfriend and her family, including her grandfather who marched drum corps long long ago, I'm assuming in the VFW days, but he has never said and isn't the most coherent person all the time. It finally clicked after talking about it for awhile, that I sit down on the front sideline and play my instrument. His response was "That's not marching band". I smiled. He's an older man, who doesn't know the activity I'm a part of. But, I am respectful, and just turned the conversation elsewhere. It's about knowing your audience.

So, no, you didn't write anything that ticked me off, nor do I have anger to get off my chest. I leave for tour in less than a week, to spend almost 3 months touring the country and entertaining. Things are good. But, my intent to you, and something I rarely can get an answer to especially on this board, is why is it acceptable for respect to be demanded from the "kids" but not required by the "adults"? And by no means am I saying that even the people in on this discussion are being disrespectful. But it happens a lot on here, granted, it's seemed to die down a bit recently. But for awhile, it was something I spent all my posts on DCP arguing with people about and then getting countless PM's telling me to keep up the good fight. So really, it seems we're on the same page. Seems good by me. I just thought you were going elsewhere with your lead in the first time.

[Iplaytimpani]

I think you are an exception. How many of your peers are as well rounded as you? I've read posts from people on here asking about various themed shows and how they would be cool or fresh and innovative, when they've been done before. I think I read a post talking about how they wish more corps would play Porgy and Bess or whatever.... I don't mind people being uninformed, but it would be nice when people who know that Porgy and Bess has been played quite of few times, for example, to be able to say that it's been done in the past without getting in trouble for bragging about how good Star '88s version was. It seems to turn into Star's 1988 version was better than BDs '05 version or Bluecoats '98 .

I think that one way that arguments get started. What begins as information sharing turns into flame wars over which show was best. What I think should be done in this situation is that the parties should check out the shows and analyze the content. Break it down however you want between its visual & musical merits, but don't take it as a stupid old skool versus new school thing. And I think this goes for the Old Schoolers, Golden Skoolers, and the GNew Skoolerzszszss! LOL... Hey, a great thing to do would be to find something good to say about each show. I know it takes effort, but we should try it.

Just an observation. While I would never be so dumb as to say all CMM know their roots and at least some history, there are many "exceptions" such as Brian.

[liebot]

I think you are an exception. How many of your peers are as well rounded as you? I've read posts from people on here asking about various themed shows and how they would be cool or fresh and innovative, when they've been done before. I think I read a post talking about how they wish more corps would play Porgy and Bess or whatever.... I don't mind people being uninformed, but it would be nice when people who know that Porgy and Bess has been played quite of few times, for example, to be able to say that it's been done in the past without getting in trouble for bragging about how good Star '88s version was. It seems to turn into Star's 1988 version was better than BDs '05 version or Bluecoats '98.

I understand that I'm the exception, but you also have to realize that I don't just sit in my room and watch the Legacy Collection all by myself, not sharing with anyone. I've done a pretty good job of being an ######## and making my friends watch old corps shows because I think they'll really enjoy it... and most of the time they do.

FWIW, I know two friends that own probably 3-5 Legacy DVDs, and both of them have 1985 in their collection, and nothing from 2000 on. So not all "newbies" are obsessing with the present at the cost of the past.

[jjeffeory]

No problem going down this road. Respect has to be earned and given freely, not demanded. Just being older does automatically entitle a person to anything, outside of bad knees and less hair. :P

:P I agree with you!

[jjeffeory]

No, I'm not just going after you. You were the one that made the statement, so you got quoted and responded to. That's generally how a forum works. And really, I agree a lot with what you're saying. I think you should be respectful, and hopefully, it's returned. It's not about "getting" it. But, when someone is disrespectful, and especially on a personal level after not being provoked, why should you have to play nice all the time? Especially on this forum, where people are educated on the activity. Quick story, totaly relevant. Last night I was out to dinner with my girlfriend and her family, including her grandfather who marched drum corps long long ago, I'm assuming in the VFW days, but he has never said and isn't the most coherent person all the time. It finally clicked after talking about it for awhile, that I sit down on the front sideline and play my instrument. His response was "That's not marching band". I smiled. He's an older man, who doesn't know the activity I'm a part of. But, I am respectful, and just turned the conversation elsewhere. It's about knowing your audience.

So, no, you didn't write anything that ticked me off, nor do I have anger to get off my chest. I leave for tour in less than a week, to spend almost 3 months touring the country and entertaining. Things are good. But, my intent to you, and something I rarely can get an answer to especially on this board, is why is it acceptable for respect to be demanded from the "kids" but not required by the "adults"? And by no means am I saying that even the people in on this discussion are being disrespectful. But it happens a lot on here, granted, it's seemed to die down a bit recently. But for awhile, it was something I spent all my posts on DCP arguing with people about and then getting countless PM's telling me to keep up the good fight. So really, it seems we're on the same page. Seems good by me. I just thought you were going elsewhere with your lead in the first time.

Okay, thanks for letting me know. Interesting story, btw. I've met older people who marched way back in the day and have no clue about the activity today. It is amusing to hear about. Have a GREAT summer! I'll be cheering for you and all the members marching where ever I see you all!

As far as your question. It's an age old question. I guess the old timers were told to respect their elders and by gosh they want to be respected when they get older. It's kind of a right of passage kind of thing...

Oh and to my defense with my posts. I don't always take the time to get my point across initially. I do however try elaborate and clear things up if needed.

[Martybucs]

Okay, thanks for letting me know. Interesting story, btw. I've met older people who marched way back in the day and have no clue about the activity today. It is amusing to hear about. Have a GREAT summer! I'll be cheering for you and all the members marching where ever I see you all!

As far as your question. It's an age old question. I guess the old timers were told to respect their elders and by gosh they want to be respected when they get older. It's kind of a right of passage kind of thing...

Oh and to my defense with my posts. I don't always take the time to get my point across initially. I do however try elaborate and clear things up if needed.

I'm an old guy, I'm 54, and I'm not sure when it happened. It seems like only ten years, tops, since I was on the field winning a DCA World Championship with the Buccaneers. But no, it was 27 years ago. How the heck did that happen!?

The point is, the same thing will happen to you; in the blink of an eye, seemingly, you'll be an old guy. There are closed minded people in every age group; people unwilling to learn and change because their way is the only real, true way to do something. It's that way with religion, politics, and drum corps to say the least.

I try not to be that way. I may say something that someone disagrees with, but I can be swayed if they have a valid, thoughtful argument, I will change my mind. Rigid, ignorant people call that waffling or flip flopping. I call it smart.

However, I have posted opinions here and on the DCA side. On the DCA side those that disagree are usually civil, respectful and humorous, not sarcastic. The ones that flame and curse and just react and are prone to "post rage" are usually younger people. You shouldn't act that way, ever. If you disagree with someone, let them know the how and why, but don't wear out your "#" key while you do it. And try to make sense. Don't turn it into a, "you old guys are always bashing us" response, my six year old uses that argument with everything be it toys he wants, making his bed, cleaning his room, washing his hands, you name it. Then he whines about it, because naturally he disagrees, sometimes I get a rational well thought out reason why he doesn't want to do what he's told. If it's a good one, he gets his way. If he just whines and cries, (equivalent to a flaming post), then no one wins.

If you're rigid, thoughtless, and insulting in your responses to people; if you just plow ahead with your ideas disregarding all opinions but your own; if you seek to bend the facts to make them represent what you believe and not the actual truth;

if you act in this callous manner attacking without thinking then you will find yourself in a fight you don't want to be in.

Here, if that happens you can select "ignore", in the real world you can't do that.

If you think first, then respect and consideration will temper your response and maybe some middle ground and understanding can occur on both sides. You can still disagree, but no one gets hurt.