BDCorno

It's not hard to figure out, people. Straight economics. DCI Stanford is the first "big" show of the year. Pretty much all the west coast shows of any consequence occur on consecutive weekends. It's economical to send a panel out to an area, and have them do a group of shows. Three shows the weekend of Stanford, and four shows the following weekend (counting Mesa, AZ). Sorry to call BS on the "most of the judges are from the West" argument too. Only two of the eight the first weekend, and only one on the second weekend. Thirteen corps at the Glendora and Riverside shows, including seven of the top 19 from last season in World and six Open units. You get big crowds at the SoCal shows (both sellouts), so there is the financial backing to support the panels. In fact, both crowds were bigger than the one at Akron, which had seven finalists. I do SMH that DCI serially ignores the west coast and its obvious fertile market of potential customers. (look at the crowd from Pasadena in 07), but that's another story altogether. My personal opinion? DCI should make sure there are at least eight judges at every show, bar none. Maybe not #### away money on venues that are too large for events, or spend it on other non-essential activities?

As I've warned many over the past couple of years, you can't judge BD's show based on a video. Even if it's the Glendora version, things are constantly being revised, formalized, focused and cleaned up. The lights and cameras absolutely work, if you see it live. Agree on the tables though...it's something that Jay and company will have to resolve. It's always a work in progress, first half of the season. They don't write drill sheets first...that's last. Basic staging and concepts are put into place, drill moves are generalized and once it's determined to be workable, THEN they come up with dot sheets. I think that's brilliant, in that it allows a collaborative atmosphere in creation of the visual. As a drill writer of many years, Pyware and/or whatever system you use CAN be a bit of a restriction. I'm sure any of us who have written drill have tons of examples where you back up and 86 or change swaths of drill. I do think BD's staging is rock solid now, placement and transfer of focus works quite nicely live (something you can't see unless it's live). They do have some work to do on the last two minutes or so, but I'm sure that's to come. This might be a very hard show to beat.

It's called "you're getting old!". Get your ears checked... Ok, seriously...with the exception of Stanford, the sound on the webcasts have been maddening. Poor mike placement, inconsistent levels and poor service. Who knows what technical difficulties the A/V people have been running into this year? I think a decent amount is self-inflicted, but I realize that anything live is fraught with danger. Seems as if the final issues on the shows individually are "fixed", so it sounds more like traffic issues with the network. A friend in Vegas had all kinds of trouble with the sound last night, but we were fine here in SoCal. I feel for them and you, but I'm not sure what they can do about it. Let's just hope ATL is dialed in!

Uh yeah...that's why I make sure and finish whatever food I have before we hear "Do you love me, John?".

True...they have added more body this year, but for me it's just too many sequential rifle tosses. Seemed like there were fewer of them tonight, so possibly they have already started correcting that. Strong equipment guard...body not so much, but not sure they'll be able to hold off BD and/or Cadets (and possibly SCV and Phantom). Still, if they can stay close in guard and drums, they have a shot at the ring.

Interesting take, hrnguy. Not sure I buy this "BD plays to the sheets/judges" urban legend. I don't think BD staff gives a flyer what the sheets say. In fact, I'd posit that this years show almost gets so far away from the sheets/system that they might have "jumped the shark". I have faith that their staff will circle the wagons and end up with a product that balances the visionary and "out there" concept with ROS and experimental jazz, with a bit of crowd/judge/sheets appeal. If not, might be a rough go of it. The fact that they're neck and neck with Crown (ignore tonight's numbers, not reality) with a show that still needs a lot of work speaks volumes to the talent of the kids and staff. I was a bit surprised that Cadets didn't score better tonight. Let's just say that we will likely see a little jostling of position/scores in Minneapolis.

That's all well and good, but how many of us could recite the winners of the TOC series since its inception? Yeah, though so.

They scored a 16.4 from all non-non-percussion judges...on par to score an 82.0 if everyone else followed that trend. :huh:/>

JUST RELEASED: BD CAMP VIDEO

"Better to be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"

Yeah, not a big fan of how inefficient they are with posting lately. I know it takes time to render the video, transfer it to FN, then render it for multiple platforms and get it up and running. HOWEVER...48 hours later and still not up? Unacceptable. People like myself pay good money for the service, and 24 hours seems to be a reasonable amount of time to get it posted. Atlanta was over a week ago, and they still haven't broken down the webcast to individual videos. Whoever is asleep at the switch over there needs a wakeup call!

Probably not, but 90's don't really mean anything any more...so why not? For me, it would just be nice to see some consistency in the caption scoring, especially percussion. If you looked at recaps to decide who they think is the best drum line, you'll get about five different answers, and big spreads to boot. Not sure if it's schizophrenia or that they really can't figure it out...but come on guys, it shouldn't be that hard!

While it seems interesting in spirit, the "plain brown wrapper" would be ripped off in about ten seconds. Any drum corps fan or judge half worth their salt could recognize any of the top ten (or more) in that period of time. No matter the theme, the brass and percussion sounds/arranging, visual styles and color guard personalities are too unique and familiar for this to reasonably work. Would have been an interesting exercise in a perfect world, but it isn't...

Can't imagine what it would be like to finish second three years running, but I thought they got it exactly right in 1977 and 1979, 1978 not so much at all! ;-) SCV finished second four years running in the 80's, including Madison/Malaguena to top it all off. Gah! That's gotta be tough.

Guess you never heard the adage "if you find yourself in a ditch, stop digging". The more you try to explain your cockeyed view of "visual demand", the more foolish you look. My views are developed by analysis and thoughtful evaluation of what IS THERE, not some mindless agenda dictated by where I did or didn't march. Yours? Not sure, but I think you'd have hard time selling them to any visual judge halfway worth their salt. P.S. - If you actually checked the Rep/Vocab/Cont/Comp totals, you'd find Cavs were first, BD and Cadets tied for second, Crown fourth. Always helps to check the facts! ;-)

They must have a long show...seems like their time slot always exceeds the usual 17 minute interval. Does anyone know if they've been incurring a lot of overtime penalties?

I'd beg to disagree, and I'm sure there are others. Surely the judges disagreed, but hey - it was the first time with "everyone" in the same place under one panel. There will be plenty of reflection on the judges' part, and maybe some things will be a little different as we go forward. From my experience, the adjustments will be minor, but there will be a few. I don't Crown's guard or drum line are "weak"...but there are stronger groups.

Hey, I'm totally with you on the "we have xx number of rings", etc.. I find that among the most recent members. Being proud is one thing, but as you say, a D-bag is another. As one of the original title winners with BD, it is cringe-worthy. Back then, we pretty much went about our business, proud of our accomplishments but not rude or showboaters. I'm with you here as well, mostly. I liked last year's show better...this year has some nice moments but lacks "octane" for me. I think this year's iteration is innovative, but it's leaned too much in favor of visual staging over "meat" to the point where they're standing around too much. They need a couple minutes more drill and some huge impact points brass-wise to satisfy me...you can't argue with the credentials of the staff, so I can only hope they see these deficiencies and address them. So far, many of the problems I had with the show have been corrected. Standing around too much is becoming a BIG problem with everyone. Out of the top four, Cadets probably do it the least, but it's still too much. Moving and playing anything difficult is a dying practice as well. Seems as if everyone has learned to "play the sheets" and get the best visual, brass and percussion performances out of their groups...but not simultaneously! Despite BD's many flaws to date, they're still in the hunt - which speaks to the talent level staff and performer-wise. However, it also illuminates the lack of really coherent and solid shows. Cavs perform very well, but don't create big GE for me like they usually do. BD, see above. Crown stands around too much as well, sounds great but the music is just a big mashup for me. Wish they'd do more of Symphonic Dances...great tune, but it's chopped to bits. Cadets do some neat things, but I have some judging-related concerns re/content and theme. Bluecoats surprised me a bit. Didn't expect them to fall to sixth. They have some nice moments, but I liked last year better. Phantom has a pleasing show but drill and percussion have issues. SCV has a nice concept, like the music but the horns are weaker this year. I just go down the list, and find that everyone just isn't quite together. I think the TOC thing came too early and forced the top corps out of their routine and comfort zone. The only group pretty much together were Cavs, and they've parlayed that into a leading role. I look at their show and think "it's great now, but I don't see too many areas they could do better". I hope for their sake the staff have some tricks up their sleeve. It almost reminds me of the BD "Constantly Risking Absurdity" concept, though with a Cavs slant. Should be a wild run to Indy...I think we may see a LOT of shuffling in the top 10.

For me, I really thought they chopped up Symphonic Dances way too much. It's a fantastic piece, but they really didn't give it much of a chance. The musical show really jumps around too much to get into a flow. Some fun parts, no doubt, but not a cohesive package overall.

Oh, hell no. I've had plenty of good conversation with those who don't care for the BD style or whatever. It's when you get the "all they do is sit in chairs" type of comments, when it's obvious to any impartial viewer that there's far more to the program, that you know you have "a live one". Any amount of discussion or points made fall on deaf ears. That's the "ignorant boob" effect. I'm sure the reason it seems to "come out of the BD camp the most" is because they've won most often lately. Comes with the territory, I guess. I'm glad you found your way to a corps that fit you best. Winning isn't everything, and the experience is king. You don't need to apologize if you don't like the visual package as much this year. I feel very much the same way, and think they have a ton of work to do if they wish to challenge for the title. I also have big concerns with the music book...many things I'd like to see added, but it's not up to me. All that said, and despite their shortcomings currently, they're still solidly in the top 4 IMHO...and based on a very strong show in Minn., thought they should have been second. Should be a dogfight to the end among the Cavs/BD/Crown/Cadets bunch...I just wonder if Cavs aren't starting to peak early.

Drives me nuts, too. If you haven't walked the judges' walk, don't make assumptions. I have mixed feelings about random draws. Most of the time I don't find it to be a huge problem, but if you get to DCI semis, for example and have a "bubble" corps going on after the #1 group while the other "bubblers" went on later after weaker groups than they...it can have a bad effect. As a judge, you'd like to think you can maintain discipline numberwise, but it's hard to make a close comparison between two groups spaced three hours apart (and with vastly different levels of corps preceding them). Seeding (better name than "slotting") can be useful, but only in controlled circumstances.

Obnoxious, maybe...but not arrogant. Should be more tactful, but after endless BD trashing and ad hominem attacks it's hard to maintain proper decorum. BD alums and fans may have the reputation you describe here on DCP...BUT...I can tell you with confidence that anyone supporting/voicing support for BD are routinely trashed as if they've personally offended said posters' mother(s). Those who engage in this behavior have a reputation among BD alums and fans as intolerant boobs, launching attacks based only on hatred for the success of the corps, and rarely based on rational or other factual data. It's an unfortunate combination...I think BD people are a little weary of it, and come off snarky at times, for which I apologize. I'd hope that people wouldn't "play judge" if they don't take a close look at everyone's show from a judge's perspective. There's no reason to NOT respect any of the top corps...but too many get blinded by "homerism" or bias against particular corps, and we end up with a situation like this. Here's hoping Alex can put on his judging cap and try to appreciate what's going on with EVERYONE'S show before making comments such as he did.

No, you make perfect sense. The ordinal (placement) priority of the system makes consistency caption to caption a huge advantage when you're vying for a title along with 3-4 more close contenders. Blue Devils benefitted from this two years ago...everyone screamed at how big the gap was between them and second place. When you're first in most captions, second in the others, and the followers are all jumbled caption to caption, it inherently opens huge gaps. You're exactly right how a bad night in one caption is easily deflected with a good night in another. Unless one of the Crown/BD/Cadets group can break free from that pack in most if not all captions, the Cavs are pretty secure.

LOL. So asking someone to back up grossly inaccurate statements is arrogant? Rather than try to explain to Alex the particulars, only to have him dismiss them out of hand (and without any additional research), I'm simply asking him to "play judge" (rather than near-troll) and realize what judges see and give/don't give credit for. It's quite simple, really. From previous discussions with Alex, there is little interest in fact-finding and a lot of interest "IMHO". Opinions grounded in "I don't like _______", no matter who they are, just waste everyone's time. I can deal with taste issues, but holding up a corps (Crown) that has little business being in the same breath with the other (and I'm talking Cavs here) warranted some review. I happen to enjoy Crown's show, but I can confidently say that they're no shining example of tremendous visual demand. That's all.