coloradocorp

It's OK just consider the source of the original comment - from one of the EVIL ones (LOL). DCA and DCI are indeed on differing tracks. IMHO - DCA is an updated version of the real drum corps thru the 70's. It is about competing, but it is all about enjoyment for the particpants and those in the stands. Drum corps at one time were for anyone with a desire to march - DCA still carries that mantra. DCI has evolved the activity into a downsized, elite - for the relative few. Reality is that DCI is primarily composed of 'all star' groups from around the world - the majority of which are music or arts majors in Universities. Indeed their execution of complex drill and music design is phenomenal, but many of the shows simply play to the judges not the audience and leave you wanting at the end. It is all about growing within the musical experience. DCA corps put together some pretty phenomenal corps which tend to really please the judges as well as the paying public. The difference in execution being DCA does not do the 3 month death march which the DCI kids endure. DCI is akin to attending the ballet while DCA is about going to a rock concert or broadway play - opposite ends of the spectrum from a pure entertainment perspective for the masses in general. If you saw the Kingsmen Alumni or perhaps Madison Alumni performances live or via digital media you saw audiences get off their butts and applaud these corps because they were entertained - period. The camera in the Rose Bowl panned the audience and you saw even DCI members going nuts over the performance. These are the types of shows the DCI folks don't get to see very often. If DCA moved to a DCI paradigm - that activity would die a rather quick death. DCA should continue to do their thing and let Atkinson do his music expereince elite thing with DCI. How would the Bucs fare competing in a DCI show ? Who knows and do any of the Bucs really care - they won their prize for a job well done !

Just saw a copy of the TB released DCI Semi performance by the Anaheim Kingsmen Alumni Corp - all I can say is WOW/Phenomenal. The questions here might be better phrased - could the Bucs have beaten Kingsmen had they competed at DCA ? From a pure show standpoint - Kingsmen would have won hands down. Obviously, M&M needed some work, but talk about bringing the house down withe 280 marching members including a brass contingent of 141 - the sound and quality was remarkable. Best drum corp show of the year award has to go to Kingsmen.

Nothing is different about this year versus previous years. The subjective format of judging which is now engrained into the DCI culture tends to produce very few surprises. It was the BD night. If anyone in the Cadets organization wants to lay it on 'the hash marks' controversy - well give us all a break. Every corp laid it all out on the turf last night. I can recall BD winning everything until finals night and the judging going with Cavies - now that was odd. Will be interesting to see how GH ' narrates' this outcome in his Blog. Let's see - perhaps - the bad,mean spirited judges punished his corp for whatever - sad commentary indeed. These kids did their best . Sad that there was the 'booing' which was deplorable during competition week and has no place in this or any other competitive actiivity. HOwever, on the flip side - it shows the disdain many have for both the narration thing as well as GH. Perhaps the only DCHOF member who might have an asterisk next to their name.

Guess you have not been around DCI very long. If you don't believe that this enters into the final scores during finals week - give me a break.

DCI judging tends to be very predicatable in most cases. The way things have gone during the later part of the season look for the following on finals night: BD its their turn Cadets best execution on the field in total, but not the best show Phantom wow - as usual Cavaliers perc not as clean as in past years - been getting some 'gifts' in this area this season by some judges leaning towards legacy versus reality Bluecoats wow - a beautiful show - could surprise all week long SCV - great improvement this season - they are back Carolina Crown - best corp they have ever fielded

Honest, informative review - well thought out. Only disagreement relates to your comment that corps using the Bb instruments today are 'as powerful' as the lines in the 80's. I strongly beg to differ. You can even go back to the Golden 60-70's and there were a few lines back then ( with say 42-48 in the line ) who could drown out the majority of corps today - take your pick - Madison, Phantom, SVC etc. Of course no argument that the overall quality today is superior though obviously the material played draws quite a divegence of fan opinions. Looking forward to hearing the Kingsmen Alumni in Pasadena - with 100+ in their brass line, I think they might be a tad loud.

I first saw the Dips in 62 in Shawinigan, Quebec at an Indoor Show then competed aginst them in an OPen Class at the same show in 63 -( marched with St Pat's of JC) lost by a tenth on sheets that were strongly slanted to GE and boy they had GE. If you saw them outside - you know they were LOUD, but indoors - it was incredible. Their opening fanfares in 63 were unreal by any standard. Glad they are coming back for more fun...

Obviously everyone - including DCA Mgmt I'm sure - agrees that the conditions were deplorable. You can't plan for Hurricanes certainly. WorldGoneMad was certainly bitter, but the undertones obviously were that he did not enjoy the roadtrip at all, is not a long time drum corp person, was bitter Frontier did not have a better season, hates the Gene Kelly classic movie 'Singing in the Rain' and does not like anything outside the confines of the State of Texas. Unfortunately, he also does not have a clue as to what it takes to run a show as large as the DCA-Championships. I certainly am not part of that organization, but I believe that DCA did the best they could under the conditions. The stadium was contracted for specific dates - to extend that would have cost considerable extra $$$ - where was that money going to come from ? I would guess a large contingent of the corp members had plane tickets purchased for the return - members had to get back for work and school etc. The out of pocket expenses for an extra day would have been considerable and most likely not an option. The option to cancel the show was there, but I doubt many marching members would have voted for that. Chalk this one off as a less than perfect weekend for some. To blame DCA for everything that went wrong is absurd - not saying things were perfect as obviously there were many holes in the planning and facilities. Unclear what they could have done given day delays were most likely not an option. An indoor standstill option was also absurd given this is a 'marching' activity. Hopefully DCA will really focus on the issues and strive to improve - waht more can you expect.

Hey Kevin - is there any award given out for any caption or whatever in memory of Mickey Petrone ? Just curious -

Hey Sigga - your diatribe is tongue in cheek - I HOPE ! If you are serious, I would agree that perhaps the Alumni should have spent part of their coffers on getting you a nice room at the Wisconsin State Happy Home. So you are ready to blame the Alumni should the Scounts go 'belly up' - which they won't. Obviously you want to see that happen. The financial crisis for all the corps in the activity can be traced in part to each organization, but principally with Master Dean A and his cohorts at DCI - they are the blame for most woes in the activity including a lack of attendance growth. Get more 'butts in seats' at the shows and the corps will have fewer financial issues.

FYI - met Ellen Kennelly in Miami - been married 33 years......

Hey Steve Williams I marched with Ray Mallen and his cousins Jim and Joe in St Pat's - he's doing well living in So Cal and marching with Kingsmen Alumni - I speak with him all the time. Shows you marched Emerald Lancers - do you remember the Conahans and Kennellys ?

30-40K fans for the Finals in Birmingham sounds high so I GOOGLED DCI and per an interview with Acheson the record for DCI attendance was 24513 (paid) at Foxboro in 1994 with a number of Finals being below 20K. Obviously they set a new record this year in Madison from what I hear, but have not seen official numbers yet. The Rose Bowl holds 100K+ ... with a different slant on marketing the activity .. hopefully they can fill the Bowl beyond 25% of capacity -

Reality is that we are all individuals with our own preferences. Drum corps has evolved dramatically in terms of staging and overall quality of what is produced on the field. The Alumni Corps performances by 27th in 94 and Madison in 06 were resounding classics and the crowd reaction was more than just plain nostalgia - the crowd was thoroughly in awe and I'm sure they will be awed again in Pasadena with the Kingsmen Alumni performance next year. Getting down to the basics - DCI was first formed to get some stability, consistency and with an aim at advancing the activity. Obviously for these past few decdes - they have done that. However, in the more recent years, 'new blood' at the top wanted to move the activity more towards an art form - not to say that it was never that intent back in the early days of DCI. Folks like Don Angelica always envisioned where we are today back then. Personally, I am in awe at the quality/complexity of the show designs/execution these days - the talent on the field is just phenomenal and the endless hours of practice gets the desired results. Not enthused about those who use narrations and amps - but each to their own. I, like others , believe that in the aggregate, the shows of earlier decades were more 'rousing' end to end. However, the growth of the activity over the decades has always been dependent upon getting butts into the seats ( to pay the bills ) and so it is important to have the activity appeal to both the purists of the artform as well as to those who might never have marched. I can speak for the 60's when the shows with some of the larger audience sizes such as the Preview of Champions, Dream, Canadian National Exposition - had fans who certainly were not drum corp types. My Dad managed the Preview of Champions for several years as well as provided some management assistance to Ray Samora when he launched the World Open shows in that era. For the Preview - he always said 2/3 of the attendees were non-drum corp people - and remember - bands at the time hated the drum corps style so those folks generally did not attend. I marched the Canadian Expo in 62 with 25,000 in the stands - I'd bet 80% of those were non-drum corps types. BTW - we got a SO after concert and at the end of the show. Point is that the activity is not growing the butts in seats numbers for the long haul and its about getting more non-drum corp types in the stands. Drum Corps is becoming too elite for some and not entertaining the masses. Perhaps a blend of the old and the new might be a great compromise. IMHO - to use an anology - many shows today have the art of a ballet - the afficianados love it though their numbers are small. On the other hand - seeing a Pirates of the Carribean turns more people on in terms of entertainment by a factor of xxxx. My point - I marched some non-championship shows in the 60's with 18-25K in the stands - can DCI really be complacent with the 24k paying customers they had earlier this month in Madison?

Personal preferences abound in this thread obviously - I am in SCVsopAaron's corner here - Madison was their unique self and they - plus far too mnay other corps - have become clones of a very few styles. The shows of the Madison Scouts in the 90's were phenomenal. The 75 show will always be in my own personal top 5 for all corps/all time. One only has to watch the video from the Scouts Alumni show at DCI - to see what Madison WAS all about and CAN be in the future - let them do their own thing. BTW - I was in total awe of the Alumni Performance - brought tears to my eyes and brought back so many great DC memories. If anyone doubts that the 'older style shows' are truly passe - watch the crowd reaction to the Alumni show which was oer the top - the crowd was truly entertained - not to say the competing DCI corps were not great - but the Alumni performance was something really special for many.

For those who marveled at the innovation - justifably so I might add - of the MOVING BLOCK drill components by the likes of the Cavaliers - the Toronto Optimists was the first with the MOVING BLOCK for their OTL back in 1963. Most things change over time - but not everything !

The issue of what constitutes 'entertainment' is - as some already have aptly pointed out - very subjective. It's about personal preferences, generational and cultural differences etc. My marching days were in the 60's so that was my launch benchmark of entertainment. I have enjoyed the shows from most every era. Personal tastes are just that, but there is always the middle of road which satisfies a broad base of people. IMHO - no one questions the quality/excellence of the corps on the field today - at each level - they are phenomenal - in my own case, I find some shows fantastically entertaining today and some others justt don't have it.' . However, current show designs - however complex - are not for everyone where the shows of back when ( 50s thru say 90's) - pleased most everyone - generally speaking. I believe that the performance of the Madison Scouts Alumni at DCI is the epitomy of the issue. From a music show point of view - it was absolutely awesome and the crowd was over the top with their appreciation of being truly 'entertained.' Going back to the dawn of DCI - the likes of Don Angelica and others envisioned crowds of 40-50,000 in the stands for the top major shows. We never got there. To do so requires growing a fan base comprised of both those in the activity and outside of the activity - the common man so to speak. The concerns that many I have talked to is that the current shows are artistically phenomenal and executed brilliantly, but they are truly appreciated by a dwindling audience who can absorb the artful brilliance portrayed - something akin to watching a ballet versus a Pirates of the Carribean movie. To see what - 24-28,000 fans at Madison this year was wonderful - but when I look back in my own past and recall playing to crowds in the 60's such as the Dream (22,000) and the Canadian National Exposition Show in Toronto ( 25,000 ) - I ask - relatively speaking - we have not grown the activity in terms of fan base. Financial issues for all corps will continue to grow unless the fan base is expanded so there can be more revenues flowing into the coffers. Putting shows on the field that entertain across a broader spectrum of fans and potential fans is what I believe is the crux of the issues discussed related to the entertainment factor. Perhaps exposure on ESPN in September will help grow the fan base - hopefully so.

Thanks

With all of the discussion about innovation - with the focus this year on the Cadets - it will be great to have the Troopers return to the field of competition. So few probably remember that Jones took this phenomenal organization from obscurity to one which would always get standing ovations in the East , West - wherever. At one point they made M&M an art form during the 60's. That was then - I understand - but they have a great opportunity to resurrect the past and be a corp which makes a difference. I noted a comment in this thread to the effect that the 'average fan' attends perhaps one show per year. If this is accurate - and perhaps it is - it reflects a significant fact as to why crowds are dwindling - the lack of fans being entertained. Back when - I'll bet fans atended more than one show per year or at least it was true in the East.Compare a standing O for the best corp at a DCI show to that received by 'alumni corps' - in most cases no comparison. The entertainment factor wins out hands down. The alumni corps certainly do not have the level of execution displayed by DCI - then again consider the alumni types practice perhaps once a week. The alumni corps always bring the house down by putting on a show that people can appreciate and understand. This is not to say that none of the DCI shows are entertaining, but some - well - they are playing to the judges not the fans in the stands - fans pay to be entertained and if not they put their entertainment dollars elsewhere. In the stone age of the 60's - shows like the Preview of Champions and the Dream in Jersey City would draw anywhere from 15-23K fans - many of whom were not drum corp types - but loved the music so they returned year after year and some attended other local shows as well.

Not sure if this is a 'verbotten' topic or not and perhaps the DCP Moderators will squash it, but does anyone have any insight into what the annual DCI budget is including revenues ( royalties, show mgmt, corp fees etc. ) and specifically salaries of staff. I had seen a thread last year - which was withdrawn by DCP - which indicated Acheson was pulling in $95,000+ performance bonus + beneifts to manage the organization ?

Interesting thread. Bottomline here - there have been a number of corps which have been very significant in moving the activity into a new direction. BB was certainly in that mold. Bobby H WAS all about 'being different' and thrilling the crowd, but like all of us - winning is what it eventually it was/is all about. Bobby loved the WIN when he was with the CABS, Anaheim and BB. BB was among the true movers and shakers of the activity which also included ( but not limited to of course ) to Casper, BS, Cavies, Phantom, BD, Cadets and SCV. They were unique indeed,, thrilled the crowd and provided impetus to move the activity in an upward directions. I vividly recall a DCI show in Montreal when they turned turned to the stands for their final number and literally pushed the stands back 50 yards with their 'New Yor, New York' number then the corp s doing their famous 'fall' upon completion of the show. DeLucias drum lines of that era were incredible to say the least. That was and CAN BE what drum corps is all about !

Agreed Michael - but beside quality of the corps - the entertainment factor was significant. Change of any nature always meets resistance. The venerable Don Angelica(RIP) wanted the changes then, what we see now, but he moved them at a slower pace to assure they did not break what they had already. My Sister judged M&M ( bands and corps ) back in the 60's-70's and she always said how many judges REALLY were not pleased with what BB was doing - but she loved it. I'm for change - but I personally want to be entertained by the new form and I think the vast majority would agree. Hard to compare some of the top corps shows today to the likes of say the fabulous show Phantom put on with their Spartacus book many moons ago. That was true art - by any measure. I'm just hoping all the changes keeps the activity for the 'masses' and not move towards pleasing the 'few'. If they flood Pasadena with 35-50,000 fans - the new form has arrived - until then - lets see how things evolve. BTW -enjoy your columns - indeed you are a very talented and perceptive writer. Thank you for your efforts.

I agree Mike, but it was not hated IMHO ( strong term ) and the resistance was not as vociferous as what we are seeing with the Cadets - true the Internet has brought a whole new plateau for open discourse. BB always wowed the crowds - something the Cadets did not do in 06. I even saw in a review of finals that 'some idiots' actually were booing as the Cadets were setting their audio up - shame on those folks, but it is symbolic of perhaps change moving too fast. The trend is to push corps to an art form - wonderful. However, I get concerned when I see fewer corps out there and crowd sizes dwindling. DCI makes big press splashes about 15K at a Regional show and how they could see upwards of 25k in Pasadena next year. I had the pleasure of marching in Toronto against the Optimists in 62 in CNE Stadium - crowd was announced as 26,000 and we and Opti were the headliners for the show. Marched the Dream in 65 with 18k butts in the seats. These were not BIG championship shows of the era by any measure. Point is - you have to fill the seats to support the activity. If you don't entertain - people don't buy tickets. I am a symphony, jazz and opera buff - they all entertain me. Drum corps perhaps was not meant to be an art form. At times, I believe you can liken the Hopkins Movement ( he isn't alone of course ) making changes to the activity to what we might encounter if FIFA (Soccer) moguls took control of the NFL and changed the rules to conform to World Soccer - you would have a lot of ticked off fans would you not ?

:) There is a major gap in innovation acceptance between the activity then and now. The BB were considered 'out there' but their shows were highly entertaining and the crowds loved it - I certainly did. Hopkins has been taking the Cadets into a non-entertaining sphere. His opinion - #### be the judges, #### be the fans in the stands. The Cadets - like all of the corps out there today - have exceptional talent - it could be perhaps beter utilized with innovtive, FUN. ENTERTAINING show designs. I am a product of what most consider the 'stone age' of corps - the 60's. Few remember that corps like Les Diplomats, Scout House. Syracuse Brigs were highly 'out there and innovative' with their drills of the era. Bobby Thompson was pushing the rudimental bass onto the field with the likes of St Pat's and BS. Shellmer came out with his bing-bong base drums with Boston Cru which were in violation of the rules then in effect. The evolution of the activity has always been ongoing.Things change, constantly, but not at light speed as proposed by Hopkins. He takes a lot of flack though I doubt there is a harder working person in the activity. He does care, but perhaps he should try not to be so far over the hill - no one can see where he is really going. Last point - I marched with St Pat's of Jersey City in 63-66. In 1966 - this was 40 years ago - our Director - Fr David Gaffney (RIP) called the corp together after the 1965 season and said that he was considering taking the corp to a purely exhibition mode, bumping the playing members to 100+, move to geometric designed drill sets and get away from the squad movements, have the color guard wear dresses, etc. etc. SOUND FAMILIAR ? At the time we thought he was 4 short of a six pack and the corp folded. Me thinks he and Hopkins are out of the same mold perhaps.

Great review - only thing missing - how many fans were in the stands. I was unable to attend due to a family committment, but drove past Invesco Field about 8pm - from what I could see the crowd was much smaller than in past years. What was you take ?